$1/2 literal first hand. Wednesday day game.

UTG +2 $12, UTG +3 call, UTG +4 (main V) goes $40. H came in behind the button looks down at AKo. Don’t know UTG +2 or +3. Main V is very loose, sticky, aggro, all kinds of active. I’ve played with him a bit but I don’t know what he thinks of me. He also has different modes. Can be straight maniac but doesn’t always play that way. Usually running hot or cold sets him off. It’s early in the day so my best guess is he isn’t tilted yet. H bought in for $300 (max), V covers slightly. Most other players are around $300 as well.

H?

I personally, will just fold here. This is a tight configuration. Unless you’re willing to 4 bet to $100 and fold to a 5bet jam (cause what is a 5 bet range at 1/3? KK-AA, AKs, the occasional QQ, AKo).
I’m not a fan of cold calling 3 bets.
This may be a nitty fold, But have to assume main V is aware that +2 is opening a tight range and main V still has rest of the table behind him to act, so he should be squeezing much tighter.

Very loose, active etc. Sometimes a maniac. This is a slam dunk all in. Utg2 is going to have to fold QQ and AK.

Vs a typical 1/3 V im folding, but if this V is a maniac, im happy to GII. Cold 4 bets shouldnt often be very big, but im 4 betting here a little “larger” to 3x ($120) due to stack sizes, planning to call any ship pre and cbet jam any flop.

Based on description of villain as extremely loose and maniacal I would be happy to just jam here.

We aren't deep enough to 4bet to another size other than all in in my opinion. If we go to 100 or 120, he will be more likely to call with something like 99, TT, than if we just jam. And if we do make it 120 and he calls and we dont hit the flop what are we doing then?

Ugh. I think I just call and see a flop.

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I would just fold. Any raise commits us (we'll have less than a psb left otf), and I hate flatting.

Why can't we 4/f to 100-120? Calling v3, probably folding if 1 or 2 wake up.

Also, we've the button. Calling, means ~100 with 260 if 1 & 2 fold. 160 with 260 if they call. Awkward, but not impossible. We'll underrep our hand, among other benefits. We'll have more info on the flop and can go from there.

Just not a fan of folding my button.& a shove so we can win 60 bucks or lose 300 isn't grest either.

Cold 4B's invite 5B jams for value with hands that either have us crushed or are flipping.

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We block the ones that have us crushed and only V1 should really have those anyway. Ofc V3 can too---I've no idea what they're doing barely 3x'ing over V1 and V2---but also has enough slop in their projected spaztastic range that I think we're priced to call if they rip it in over our 4.

Reads for V1 and 2 would be nice.

Contra the very large Sklansky-book, 'let's all start limping pf' thread, I'm not a big fan of it going multiway this shallow, which it probably will if we just call. (I'm just more in favor of that than either folding or shoving.) Yes, live 4b are almost always KK+ here, and that isn't us, but what are solvers suggesting we *should* be doing?

Sorry, I should have been more clear in my earlier post.

Yes, our AKo blocks AA and KK, which is good, obviously, and we aren't too concerned about being crushed if V 5B's. Though if that happens, I'd expect to be flipping at best, or drawing slim against AA/KK at worse.

I was thinking more about our overall range for a cold 4B. It's very strong, probably QQ+, generally, assuming we don't have a reason to get very out of line against our V's.

With us being in the CO, I think we can flat here with some hands that might otherwise be strong enough to cold 4B if we were OOP. So, I might just flat with QQ and AK, and only cold 4B with AA or KK, and maybe just AA. Depends on how tight I think V's are. Maybe we flat JJ and A5s, too, if the table is koo-koo for coco-puffs wild.

My reasoning is that we wouldn't want to 4B QQ and face a 5B jam, knowing our V's likely range is going to be AA, KK, and AKs. If we're going to have a 3B-calling range here, it seems weird for it to be QQ and only QQ.

Flatting with AK and QQ allows us to have a decently strong range with some hands that continue on an ace- or king-high flop (AK), and some hands that fold those flops if V c-bets (QQ), but can also get us to the turn or river with a fairly strong PP, as opposed to ace-high that never improved.

Otherwise, I agree with you, about having some reads on the other V's here, as well as stack depths for them. Generally, I don't hate the idea of getting it in pre with AK, especially if we've got the right combination of reads and shallow stack depths. If main V is squeeze-happy with limpers in front, and / or if the other V's are short-stacked, that might push me more towards a 4B than a flat call.

4bet to $80 and fold to a jam vs this description. Fold vs an unknown.

You want to play postflop vs your opponent (assuming you know how sizing works in low SPR spots) since you are in position.

He is an unknown, my man. It's in the desc. and raise/folding pre to 80 is like 35% of our stack which would be really horrible especially vs a guy we should already know is like 90% a premium hand which he's at a min. flatting a 3bet, and you won't really need to worry about SPR. If we raise to 80 and he calls (which you should expect before even deciding to raise), we only have 220 left and the pot's already 190, almost a psb.

He isn't an unknown, re-read the OP.

If he was an unknown you just fold preflop.

Hopefully you understand why the $80 4bet sizing is better than jamming.

This doesn't mean we should jam. I didn't suggest jamming, but a 3bet in 1/2 from this guy is still a strong bet. Hero mentioned nothing suggesting he's even ever 3bet before.

Raising to 80 and folding to a raise when we only have 300 is horrible, which is why we should fold if we're not comfortable with calling off a jam.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, reading this thread.

Been a while since I played 1/2, but is a 6x open normal?

We've got a 6x open from UTG2, a flat call, and a 3B from aggro V in MP, but apparently it's early in the day, too soon for him to be in wild-man mode. Even discounting the strength of his range, we still need to think about unknown dude opening UTG2, what he has, and what he'll do if we 4B, to ANY size here.

So...we 4B, to whatever size (literally, any size), and UTG2 jams. Then what? We're $300 deep. If we're seriously thinking about 4B'ing just to fold to a 5B, why can't we just flat call the $40, and fold to a 4B, or possibly see a flop IP if UTG2 doesn't re-open the betting?

For cryin' out loud, it's AKo. It's the most over-hyped hand in Hold'em, and we're talking about torching a third or more of our stack (if not the whole thing) cold 4B'ing it, with a plan to fold to a 5B???

What are we doing when we whiff the flop, with 1 SPR? Please tell me we're not doing a jam and pray.

Doesnt being this shallow take away from our ability to play post flop vs this player though?

well the prob here though is stacks are very shallow so anything we do pre will commit us if we bet another dollar otf. We're making a decision now for our stack basically, and unless he's they type of guy who 3bets any squeeze opportunity with the majority of his range (and UTG+2 isn't a nit) I would fold and not even care about folding AK.

I'm usually fine raising AKo vs. a player like this, but we have unkowns behind who raised/flatted and it's early and V probably isn't tilted. I probably flat and see what happens. I don't think I can fold. If I do raise, I'm committed to gii pre if it comes to that.

So, if you cold call the 3!, I’m assuming you’re folding to the initial raiser if he 4!?

What’s the plan?

If Villain has a wider than normal 3betting range as per OP's description then he will very likely call his whole non jamming range vs the min 4bet (even though he is supposed to fold some hands) which makes it better for us postflop.

The SPR will still be over 1 so we can use the standard 4BP sizing structure postflop.

Those saying you are "committed" to calling a jam after 4betting to $80 aren't really understanding the equities. You can use equilab to figure it out.

If you think he jams let's say, AKs/AA/KK and calls the rest of his hands.

You just plug in AKo vs that range. In game we would need to call off $220 to win $627 = ~35% equity to call.



It's a very easy fold if he jams.

Also I'm sure the blocker guys will come out and say but "we have blockers!?," you have to understand: Blockers are completely irrelevant if your opponent is never bluffing.

I'd thought committment was usually a 1/3 of our stack or so. So we could bet 100 pf, and maybe get away, but 120 would be a mistake to fold if that first point is true.

My concern with calling is related to my earlier point about shoving 300 to win 60. If we call, and V1 and 2 follow along, now there's 160 in the pot on the flop. Shoving to win 160 will look appealing to V1-V3, and we act last. My concern is that we get a non-A/K flop, see a shove, have to fold, and forfeit our chance of seeing 5.

If we 4b instead, and hopefully get some of these Vs to fold hands which are currently beating us or chopping, we still act last on the flop, but we only have to dodge maybe 1 V shoving (hopefully V3) vs 3 of them. I expect V3 to call or shove.

If V1 shoves pf, we fold. UTG2 open/5b range is KK+, right? There's no AK there?
We risk 100 to 4b vs 40 for calling, but the chance of getting V1 or V2 to fold things like PPs that are currently beating us, is worth it.

That crude rule is based upon being unexploitable and playing GTO solutions. It has no business in being applied to actual poker.

It's just a pot odds question vs a range.

For example if you are 350bbs ($700) deep at $1/$2 game and you are in the BB with KK.

UTG opens $10, LJ calls/HJ calls/CO calls/ BTN 3bets to $80 and you 4bet to $230 in the BB.

If UTG 5bet jams $700 over your $230 4bet (remember that is 1/3 your stack so you're committed!) do you really think you should call KK here?

Of course not as it will be AA the overwhelmingly majority of the time.

So you committed 1/3 of your stack but you still fold.

Depends on the range we think V does this with. We need 470 to call and win a total pot of 110+700+700, or about 31%. We don't have it with V range = AA. We might if it's KK+, AKs. In practice, it will have to be wider than that, as the frequencies for each potential hand aren't equal, and are biased to AA.

Mainly, I use that rule-of-thumb as a bet sizing and pot-size planning guide, not as a hard call/fold rule. Originally, I was thinking of a 3x 4b size for H, or 120. Commitment would be 100, but if the goal is merely to kick out V1 and V2, your 4b of 85-90 also accomplishes those goals while saving money if we need to fold.

Yes, villain is wide, so probably will call his entire 3bet range here that isnt jamming. What about jamming like I said though to maximize fold equity? We know this guy 3bets a lot, hes not only 3betting the most premium hands. What if we jam and get him to fold stuff like TT and JJ, maybe he even folds queens? And even if he does call it off we have solid equity.