Hero has $600+ back on the button, V1 has $150 in SB, V2 has $350 in BB.

Hero - young 20's, LAG, dominating table
V1 - Nittiest nit...
V2 - young to mid 20's. Sunglasses, hoodie, headphones in and motionless. Typical novice. Playing TAG. C-bets most flops.

Folds to Hero preflop. Hero has AsAd. Raises to $11. SB calls, BB calls.

Flop is AcKcKd. SB bets $20, BB flats to $20, Hero raises to $40 (I know they both won't fold to a minraise here, only reason I minraise). Both call

Turn is 5c (Bingo). SB checks, BB leads out for $90. Hero tanks for 45 seconds, then just flats. SB folds. BB is starting me down so when the deal burns and turns, I sit up in my chair looking at the river like I want the board to pair with Kx here.

River is 2s. V2 has a little over $200 back, leads out for $75, he obviously has a flush here. I tank for 25-30 seconds then put him all in. This is where the whole ordeal starts.

He immediately sits back and starts analyzing everything. He looks up and asks, "Do you have a boat?". I respond with shaking my head no and ask him, "You have the nut flush?". He nods yes and tanks a bit more. Then two guys at the table start saying how we're discussing our hands before showdown and that's against the rules. They call the floor over and start complaining about the hand taking place. The floor man rules since we both discussed our hands openly with the other that the river shove by me must be returned and we showdown for the original $75. At this point, I literally can't complain because that'll give my hand away and I'm praying V2 complains, however, he does not. I'm forced to show my hand and I immediately made a B-line for the floor man who had just walked away.

I believe this was one of the worst rulings I'd ever been a part of, however, I don't believe he was going to call me.

Anyways, after leaving for 30 minutes to calm down after that fiasco, I was thinking about how I played the turn and river. I feel like raising the turn might've gotten him to put his stack in either 3 betting or on the river. Is there anyway I could've extracted more value from the hand?

Also, for etiquette, I had a couple people tell me that lying about not having a boat is bad etiquette. I personally don't believe it to be bad etiquette but I wanted to know what you guys thought about it.

1) raise turn. you're never getting stack in if you don't. Don't slowplay yourself to death.

2) Talking about hand rules depends on venue. Inn most places, if you are HU it is fine, in others, table talk is fine, HU or not. In many (and, sadly, a growing number of) casinos, talking about your hand is forbidden.

3) Lying about your hand is generally accepted. A lot of places that allow table talk specifically say that you can talk about your hand as long as you don't tell what your hand actually is. This is (was?) the rule at the WSOP. So in effect, you have to lie, if you're going to talk about your hand at all. Jamie Gold broke this rule continuously the year he won, though no one complained.

That said, I wouldn't answer the question at all, as it is an opportunity for a massive tell. I generally respond to questions like that (if I respond at all) with "I'm sorry Johnny, I don't remember."

Bad ettiquette? Not at all!! Are you supposed to tell the truth, giving villain the info to make the right play? If so then setting up false tells and hollywooding would be bad etiquette because you're lying or giving false info.

You did nothing wrong.

As played, don't think you could have gotten more value out of your hand. A turn raise alerts villain to the possibility of you holding a boat or a higher flush causing him to fold correctly I believe

Yeah, you are probably not getting stacks in unless you raise the turn. His range is definitely full of flushes, so might as well get it in right there.

As for the floor decision, that's really piss poor. You guys were heads up. Who cares what was said?

I raise turn trying to get ai there.

AP, shoving river is all you can do and hope he calls.

I wouldn't have tanked for as long as you did on either street but idt that's what anybody was angry about. I disagree with the ruling, if it's a HU pot those 2 players can discuss anything they want to imo, although I know about the "can't tell the truth" rule. I usually just stay silent, not necessarily motionless, when people tank and start asking questions out loud like that - no one can get too mad if you're just sitting there quietly.

I don't have an opinion on etiquette, but I don't think you handled it very well.

Don't look at the board like you want it to pair. Obviously your opponents can tell that you have a hand that requires acting.

You predict he has the nut flush and you look relaxed and happy about it?

If you're right and everyone at the table wants the game to proceed then just tell him: fold and let's get on to the next hand. People don't like to be told what to do and will do the opposite.

That's a ridiculous floor decision and if I were you, I'd be pissed at the players who weren't even in the hand who were complaining about it. Unless, there's a documented house rule to the contrary, you should be finding that guy's boss.

Hand-Everyone seems to be forgetting the SB, who I assume is why you flatted. If you can coax a call from him, it's getting in on the river with the BB as well. I suppose it depends on how nitty he is post flop. A lot of tight players can't get away from the few hands they do play. That's for you to tell I suppose. If you think there's a high percentage of calls from sb then just flat it. If you think he's checking out then you should raise it for sure on the turn.

It was obvious SB was folding. He was super nitty and he would fold unless he hit a big part of the flop. I had no reason to think flatting would get a call from him, especially when I had most of the board locked up.

Your table talk here is horrible. You are pretty much telling your opponent that you put him on the nut flush and you still raised him (aka you are telling your opponent you have a boat+). LLSNL players aren't folding the nut flush here very often so just keep your mouth shut and wait for a call.

Yesterday, I open shoved on the river on a board of 10s-8h-2s-Qd-Kd with AxJx. It became apparent pretty quickly that my opponent was much weaker than I anticipated (I had led out on turn, and he had raised me so I thought he was really strong). His table talk indicated that he was scared I could have a queen. In this instance, I felt compelled to utilize table talk to get a call, so I started naming all of the hands that I could potentially have that beat his JJ (which he had pretty much admitted to having). Finally, I told him that I could have a straight and then immediately he said: "You convinced me, I call")

As for the ruling, I think it's horrible that you weren't able to talk about your hands heads up. They are taking away some of your tools when they do that (the casinos I play at allow this talk when heads up).

yes to raising turn. v1 is folding no matter what you do, and v2 will commit himself when you raise, b/c he won't be able to lay it down there.

as for the ruling, this is pretty terrible. especially since the people complaining weren't even in the hand. also you had announced all-in before the talking happened, so your bet should have stood. still, the floor is pretty unreliable, and I would've advocated doing something to quiet the people who weren't in the hand.

the main piece of etiquette here is to not talk in other people's hands. that way you can command respect when you tell other people to be quiet during yours. as for lying about the boat, I have no problem with it. I either say I don't know or don't reply when asked, depending on how chatty the table has been. it might be witty to claim you have pocket deuces.

also, I've never heard of not being able to talk heads up. I've heard that people who aren't in the hand can't talk about what the players have, but players in the hand. however, tournament rules on talking are becoming more stringent, so it's possible that house rules are changing. again, it's always good to know the rules.

If he's got a flush on the turn and you jam here rather than OTR he's more likely to weigh you towards Kx then a boat because flatting there then jamming the river just looks way too strong. Multi way it is stupid to take a bluff line like that on this board, so it's almost face up that you have a full house in the other guys eyes as you are rarely shoving Jx clubs or lower there at all.

+1



1. imo, horrible min-raise on the flop (totally gives away ur hand).. Either smooth call there or raise to 60$ish -- (I prefer just a call).

2. The ruling Sucks, and the players should just stfu since they are not involved.. and in most casinos if you are HU you are allowed to talk about ur hand (nt as stated by others).

3. Definitely bad etiquette, I totally don't like lying about your hand, and that doesn't mean say the truth. you can say nothing, say maybe, or just ask him what he has instead.. I also don't like the fact that you told him do you have the nut flush (that means that u beat that)..

OP I'd feel bad for your but you sound incredibly obnoxious, "dominating" that big 1/2 game and all, and I think I'd be happier if they ruled your hand dead and gave BB the pot...

The floor ruling seems fine if those are the house rules, which obviously are pretty terrible, but upholding the law, even when it sucks, is fine.
The other players calling the floor in that spot is pretty ridiculous, I am assuming they are doing that because you are acting like a tool, so fyi try to cut back on that in the future.

I like raising bigger on flop too. If they are calling another 20, they are always calling another 30 or so, so why not raise it more? I like raising turn, some bad river cards, he ain't folding. Nice job costing yourself 200 on the river, wp