4 limp, i($650) limp A3 in late, folds around to SB($600) who makes it $17 to go. BB folds, 4 limpers all call. hero calls.

is preflop call a mistake even if SB and I are $650ish deep?

flop($104): T45

SB leads $70, 4 limpers fold, hero?

bdfd/gutter/ and an over. what is your line?

villan- late 20's, looks like a rec player, but better than your average 1/2 live player, and less fishy. doesn't make moves and is playing mostly ABC. he did however shove his last $100(was sitting with 50bb) on a 924 flop with 77, and got called by KQ. turn and river faded, and he scooped the pot.

hero- card dead up until this hand. haven't given too much action. he probably views me as a tight nit who always seem to have it. i have shown down some monster hands at showdown including flopped quads, and AA AIPF for $400 pot earlier.

I'm ok with calling pre given the odds and everything but please just fold flop. No reason to get cute here. Best case would be hitting the 2 but don't count on it.

FOLD

Grunch.

I guess pre is fine. I really wouldn't consider stack depth as a reason to call here. If V is decent he is not going to put the majority of his stack with a potential flush on the board.

I would actually be tempted to re-pop it pf if V is opening wide here. There is a lot of dead money out there that you can pick up pf.

As played, you got the correct odds on your hand pf (i guess) so you can just play fit-or-fold. V came out and bet pretty strong so I don't think you can take him off his hand by playing creative.

So therefore, routine fold.

between raising and calling, which one is better? say folding was out of the question.

It just depends on V pf tendencies. Is he opening wide? Would he make a raise with a pocket pair like 55 to "build a pot?" If V is just your standard TAG or NIT, then I won't make a play at it.

We are not worried about the limp/callers. They are never showing up with a hand here.

That's like asking if I'd rather cut off my left leg or my right one.

Seriously raising is probably better than calling if you think he can fold AA-QQ to a flop raise + turn shove

yeah they folded so nothing to really worry about except for sb..

i wouldn't label him as a nit or a tag, he does play pots(usually limping pre), but not to the point where you label him as a fish. he did however raise 77 pre from UTG to $12 and took it down without seeing a flop and showed earlier.

Your stack sizes are exactly why you can make the PF call here as this isnt really a great hand to play, even in position, against an early position ABC raiser without a few BB behind to use.

In most cases this is a PP or AK/AQ and you are looking to spike an Ace or something similar to what you have here (but better) so you can attack a weakish Flop bet. You didnt get a weakish Flop bet so you have a decision to make based on basically one huge factor.

If you float this decently sized bet and pick up an A, 2 or club draw will you get paid off by this player ... my guess is probably not.

Does this player have a history of c-betting regardless of Flop? What, using your indicated image, does calling this bet tell your opponent about your holdings? My guess is that you would have TX or A-rag, possibly a med PP since you didn't 3-bet PF when the pot got to a decent size. Is this size bet from this opponent 'believable'?

I am known in my room for staying in these kinds of hands and winning pots because of my image. I could use a 2,3,4,5,6,9,T,J or A and any club to my advantage going to the River if I wanted to float this hand.

I think this is a fold for 2 reasons ... one, its the wrong opponent to get paid off from unless its a true cooler of a hand and ... two, this is a fairly large bet to float with in a 1-2 game and you better be prepared to jump ship on most Turns. However, I also find a nice large pot like this is there for the taking if we get checked to on the Turn with the right card coming. Feel free to check the Turn if a club hits and steal a pot if you spike another on the River.

These are the kinds of pots that get you paid off later even though they are more than likely a loser if looked at just for the hand value itself. GL

FOLD.

You have watched too much TV and are trying to make an elaborate multi street bluff at a 1/2 game when villain is showing lots of strength. Please. If you must just jam pre then it takes away all post flop decisions which you don't seem to be able to make very well.

Did I mention......FOLD

I think OP is talking about pf here. There is no way folding is not an option on the flop.

Stop thinking about stack sizes when decided to call with a hand like this pf.

V would have to be a complete and total drooler to stack off 325 BB with AA/KK with three flush cards on the board.

solid advice, thanks!


its pretty obvious i didnt fold after i asked if raising or calling was better.

so yeah, stop saying fold, and put some thought into it.

nah, im talking about flop.

say you're in a situation like this and you're open/ended. are you really folding to a flop bet? you are calling at least once with an oesd here right? so im just wondering if calling is bad here with an over/bdfd/and gutter. give him a range of TT-AA(i have an A blocker, and i can probably eliminate TT from his range as there is a T on the board). that means i have an overcard to his JJ-KK. an oesd is 8 clean outs, while this hand is 7 outs with a bdfd. does calling seem bad now? and i agree raising is better than calling if you have FE

looking back at it i agree, i think i could fold this preflop. but im probably calling 100% preflop with small pp's as sets are well disguised and im probably getting stacks in if villan is unable to fold a big hand.

Is this a joke? You want him to give incorrect theoretical information and you have the audacity to say put some thought into it? Calling or raising here is a losing move. Putting anymore thought into making terrible decisions is counter-productive to everyone.

Fold.

/s

yeah, fold flop once i called/raised flop.. sounds legit..

get it through your head, i either raised or called on the flop and the debate is from there. you not giving any constructive criticism except for 'fold' just shows how much you know.

Fold pre here OP.

Too many people call too many hands pre-flop because if they do hit they can stack their opponent.

This can work against nits who cannot get away from a high pp when you are set-mining, but it is much more difficult when calling with Axs and suited connectors.

Given you are last to act, which can make it seem sweeter, but villian just got called by 4 opponents and now you. If clubs hit, and you call his C-bet, and get another club ott, action is going to be slowed down.

It's very different when you are multi-ways into the flop. Villian is skeptical and from his description, unless he hits, is probably not C-betting into 5 people and if he does hit and c-bet, and get's popped, would still be skeptical depending on the board.

You have 0 invested, and have to flat 17. Fold pre.

As played, fold. No reason you should ever call this c-bet, ever.

yeah looking back this is a fold preflop. im pretty much gunna have to hit trips 333, or some combo draw to feel good on the flop. and even if i do hit on turn, he's probably giving me action but folding mostly on rivers unless the dude is a drooler.

jw, what you would do with an oesd here on the flop? are you calling 1 or still folding??

Depends on the flop. If the flop is Axx and your two cards make an oesd with the two xx's, then yes, I'm calling a c-bet seeming how if I do hit, and he fires again, it's obvious he has a high ace and I get some reeeeeeeal value here.

If the flop is T65 or such, and you have 47, then it depends on how much he bets for the c-bet. If it's not too much (as in 50-70%) of the pot (depending on the type of V and whether I can get value if I do hit), then yeah, I call here. Depends a whole lot on villian. If villian bets 70% of the pot, which would be around $70 into a 104 pot, I call. That puts you with $87 invested into a $244 pot. That's worth it. That also gives you another chance if villian slows down after you call his c-bet and you might see a free card if you want, although, if villian checks on turn after I call his C-bet, then I am firing almost every time here, and I'm firing about 60% of the pot.

Yeah, a lot of the odds just depends on the villian. Of course it goes up if you know he can't get away from a pp, and it also goes up if villian is passive and can be bluffed off. Depends alot on if there are people behind you also and if they are passive or aggressive.

thanks mp5, nice post.

Grunch.

Folding pre (if villain was a fish I could see calling, but if he's better than your average 1/2 player, he's probably not making as many mistakes post), but don't hate the call. Overlimp in position is obv fine though.

Just giving up on this flop. We did connect a little, but enough to warrant floating for $70. His ABC play should dictate him having QQ+ here a ton. Now you could make an argument for raising here trying to rep a set and shoving turns where you pick up equity if you know he is capable of laying down an over pair... but there should be a lot better spots to pick up money in a 1/2 game if you're a solid player that you shouldn't need to be taking spots like this against an "above average" opponent. Doing anything other folding here seems like unnecessary FPS imo.