V1 has been calling super wide, but no bluffs so any aggression is always strength. Previous hands: I raised AK UTG and she called K8o UTG+2, then called quickly on Q82 with two behind. I raised HJ with AK and she just called JJ on BTN, then snap raised my bet on AJT and I wanted to fold.

V2 has been open limping a lot, overlimping almost anything and raising rarely. More so raising on BTN/CO and then over cbetting. Maybe raising bigger with better hands.

BB is new, seems kind of solid (comparatively), but probably calls a bit too wide by default.


On to the hand:

V1 limps UTG with about 350
folds to...
V2 in CO makes it 7 to go with about 200
H in SB with 88 calls (covers).
BB calls
V1 calls

I can obviously 3bet this pre. but I don't think anything great happens. Depending on size I can get folds pre. sometimes, but if we see a flop I'm going to have to bet and hope for folds ... Like wouldn't be shocked to see QTo from CO see a flop unless I make it big. Just calling I can play for small pots on low boards, and for set value.

Pot: 28
Flop: 863r
H checks
BB checks
V1 checks
V2 cbets 10
H pretends to think and calls
BB folds
V1 calls

Can obviously raise flop, but H feels like he's crushing everyone ... sometimes a V will have 97 but everything else is drawing almost dead.
Also maybe got a read that V1 thought about raising flop but decided against it, maybe because I called.

Pot: 58
Turn: 863 3
Checks through

BDFD hits on 3, but can't remember if it was with the 8 or 6.

Pot: 58
River: 8633 2
H leads 25
V1 snap makes it 50
V2 folds
H ?

Feel free to comment on anything.

Just jam.

Preflop is standard against V2 in CO as described, since V2 has been raising preflop rarely. I'm calling and set-mining rather than isolating oop against the top of V2's range.

Flop: I prefer the x/c on a rainbow, uncoordinated board multiway. HU I would probably be trying to xr.

Turn: I prefer to lead this turn at maybe 1/3 PSB. H has way more 3x, small pairs in need of protection and SDs than does V2. V2 has overpairs and some NFDs. V1 can have anything. A 1/3 PSB encourages both to continue with most of their ranges.

River: I prefer a polar sizing to a value bet. H has range and nut advantage. We can rep 54s here easily also. I still think V2 has to call with QQ+ getting 2-1. Perhaps V1 has 3x, 66 or 54s.

AP river: with 130 in the pot, I'm making it 200. V gets over 2-1 to call and almost certainly cannot fold 3x, 54 or 66 for this price.

WP so far.

V1 calling super wide according to OP.

Just jam right? What am I missing?

Probably jammed and ran into 33.

This is a disaster

You can save it by jamming but there are a bunch of things wrong with your strategy based on this one hh

If ur not gonna raise flop you have to lead turn. Paired boards get checked back almost 100% of the time unless someone has trips when it's multi way at low stakes

If someone has trips they will likely raise you which is great as well

Yeah it's worth noting that'll happen sometimes but it's just 1 combo. More often you 3b the river $200 or jam, and get called by 66 (3 combos) or 54 (4+ combos).

Maybe nothing?



I know there's a bunch of things wrong with my strategy, that's why I post, you might need to be more specific though because I don't know what all of them are.
So ... why?

AIUI: The betting lead can change when ranges interact differently based on the new card/flop.
Common example is something like PFR vs. BB HU:
Flop: K82; x, b, c;
Turn: K82 8;
Now BB can lead because PFR shouldn't bet 8x hands on the flop but BB should x/c 8x so BB is more heavily weighted to trips.

BUT

As SB I "should" have almost no 3x, maybe the 1-2 combos of A3s that also have a BDFD on the flop. Hell maybe I go wild and call both combos anyway.
As the flop overcaller UTG "should" know they need to beat a pair and even A3 doesn't really solve that problem, so even if we assume UTG makes it to the flop with 43/53/K3/A3 do stations just assume they'll hit 2pair or trips?
I'm pretty sure I would treat this card as a blank, and good for me as CO. The fact I got two calls to my flop bet is probably worse for me though.
Also as CO, I would bet any 3x on the flop roughly 100% of the time.

On the other hand I fully believe that CO is cbetting flop way too much ... and can kind of believe he doesn't double barrel anywhere near as often, correctly or not.
So you saying to donk turn with monsters as an exploit?
Or maybe even monsters and air, only checking medium strength hands, basically ignoring V1's overcall?

Haven't read the spoiler yet...

I like the flat call pre.

Flop, I might actually donk-lead when we're first to act in this multi-way set-up with the PFR last to act.

I don't like going for the check raise when the PFR is last to act. We miss a street of value when it checks through, and everyone else in the hand just folds if he c-bets and we check-raise, or over-calls if we just flat call, so we're still playing multi-way and OOP.

A donk-lead will deny equity from some of those MP hands that could catch up, and might get a spaz-raise from over-pairs or 54.

Everyone will think we're donk-leading with 54 or top pair. Good. That's what we want.

Turn - another reason to donk-lead flop with a set. After we check-call flop, then the board pairs on the turn, donk leading looks too strong. Even so, I'd still donk-lead turn, for the simple fact we shouldn't have much if any 3x in our range that gets here this way, and no one's putting us on a boat when we check-call flop multi-way.

River - Jam over her raise. If she's got 33, tap the table. NH/GG.

Now I'm going to read the spoiler...

I might donk flop myself. They are not folding anything they are betting/calling with. I lead the turn. We need to get some money in there, and although it looks strong, it can also look like you are trying to "buy it" from SB.

Do whatever will get the most money in. It's kind of hard for her to call a shove, but she might. You can also make it $150 and see what happens. Don't fold.

Why lead the turn for 1/3 pot? If I would lead, I would make it about 2/3 pot. You want to build the pot. If no one has anything, oh well.

Against the described V1 and V2 with their positions I am leading either turn or flop. You have said V2 is probably wide, so you want to start building a pot with V1. The thing is that since you block top pair, you probably want to hope V1 has a draw and will pay on both flop and turn.

As played on the turn, lead. You got a cbet from V2 and you know V1 is interested in the hand. Don’t let it check through. I might go around half pot or a shade more.

As played on the river I would jam. Any 3bet looks about equally strong so might as well put it all in.

EDIT: I forgot this was 4 ways to the flop. Now I want to lead even more as waiting for V2 to bet for us puts us in even worse relative position.

When do we find out what happened?

Haven't read the spoiler.

You have managed to get to the river after having top set on the flop and a FH on the turn getting exactly 5 BB in the pot. That's a disaster. I agree with the others that you needed to bet the flop and 1/2 pot is a good size. The bet isn't going to look super strong, but more of a "I got TP or OP and want to win it now."

By betting the flop, you can now bet the turn, too since it isn't going to look like a monster.

River is a snap jam. You want to this quick because you want the villains to match your tempo. You don't want them thinking, you want them reacting by speeding things up.

Your flop and turn options in SB are an interesting dilemma - to slow play or not?

Nothing wrong with your logic in a vacuum, especially not if you're playing against competent opponents. If you're confident in your reads of the V's here, and your reasoning is in alignment with your reads, there's not much to debate, maybe.

Just generally, when playing lower stakes, especially OOP and multi-way, I tend to default to a "my hand is good - gotta bet early and often" sort of mindset, rather than getting wrapped around the axle trying to figure out who might call and why.

While donk-leading is generally frowned upon, there are GTO reasons to do it, especially in multi-way pots, on low-to-middling dynamic boards like this one, which would seem to favor the blind-defense range more than the LP PFR's.

I found a good article about flop donk betting on Upswing - https://upswingpoker.com/donk-bet-lead-flop-strategy/.

Logically, if we're slow-playing the flop in the hopes that the turn will be T+, it's going to look suspicious if we suddenly check raise after V turns top pair. But if we donk-lead flop, a lot of V's will call with un-paired over-cards. Some more aggro V's might even get spicey and raise, especially with their big PP's.

Fair enough, full result ...

Nice hand.

I'm a little confused. Maybe you're being sarcastic, but how did you torch 60 if you were all in and V called?

V2 probably isn't calling your flop donk lead with A3o. You're thinking V1 might have, because she's loose-passive? If so, all the more reason to donk the flop. So many good things can happen if we donk here, especially if she calls, if it induces more calls or even a raise from anyone else.

I like the flop donk better because it's more deceptive and might induce a spaz raise from the PFR or any opponent with A6, 66, 33, 63, or 45. The default thinking for so many low-stakes recs is "why would he donk-lead with a monster, instead of check-raising? He must be bluffing, or just betting a weak top pair or a draw."

If you donk turn, maybe it looks like a bluff, but it can also look like you wanted to check-raise flop but didn't get the chance, or a hand that turned thick value.

I mostly agree, but where does 5 BBs come from. There are 29 BBs in the pot going to the river and hero put in 8.5 of them.

Does he raise rarely, or with QTo? Thats an inconsistent read.

I recommend 3 betting to 35 pre. Not an outright error to call, but with the high rake at low stakes, getting those preflop folds is huge, and the players being bad means bigger pots, and bigger errors. GTO 3 bets 88 about half the time, so its not even an out of line 3! (Which i do plenty of out of line 3 betting at 1/3)

The other reason id 3! Is the villians, if they whiff they will let you get to showdown, and you can also push them off their equity on certain (mostly ace high) boards, or get some value on low boards.


As played, i guess id play same as you, but only having put $18 into the pot going into the river sorta speaks volumes to my point about preflop.

Easy jam, these guys generally dont have a raise/fold range, so you just maximize value.

I was surprised nobody questioned this before as I wasn't sure I'd explained it well ... I'd seen him open limp and overlimp a lot (like 65%+ bingo ranges), but I'd also seen him raise to 12 from BTN with one, or maybe two limpers. So when he made it 7 from CO with one limper I was pretty sure it wasn't JJ+/AK and also pretty sure it wasn't T7s/65o/etc ... so I was expecting him to call a lot unless I made it really big, and a lot of that range was two overs.