So this hand came up on my last trip to Borgata. Effective stacks $800 (I have 900, villain has 800). Everyone else at the table is super fishy, all with less than $250 stacks.

Villain 1: quite good for a 1/2 player. He isolates the fish and has a decent concept of post-flop bet sizing. He is not afraid to raise a wide value range in position against 2 limpers. He bought in max for $300, and has not lost a big hand yet. C-bets a reasonably high frequency. I've seen him bet 2/3 pot on 6-way AT2hh flop with J3hh. His preflop play is a bit leaky in that he open limps sometimes, but his postflop play has been mostly solid. He almost never folds to my 3bet though, because I assume he thinks he has implied odds against my big pairs. He has 3bet me once with AK, some ridiculous sizing (I raise 15, he 3bet to 75). As we both were getting deeper, he asked me, "when are you going to double me up?" I just laughed it off at the time, but I assume he wants to stack me pretty bad. We've been tangling a bit in the past 30 minutes, one hand with him double barreling an A-hi board where I called 2 streets with AT.

Villain 2: super fish. Huge mark at the table. Bought in for $200, asking "what is this game?"

Hero: should be viewed as solid. Value bets thin, doesn't open-limp, isolates fish in position. Usually has the goods at showdown.

Villain 1 open-limps UTG, hero raises to $15 (normal raise size) with K K, villain 2 calls from big blind, villain 1 calls.

Flop: (pot 45)
9 4 4

Villain 2 checks, villain 1 donk bets $20, hero raises to $50.
Villain 2 folds, villain 1 3bets to $110, hero calls.

Turn: (pot 265)
9 4 4 3

Villain 1 bets $160, hero calls.

River: (pot 585)
9 4 4 3 6

Villain 1 bets $400, hero...


On the flop, I think there is way too much value to just flat call. He could be donking with a 9, a 4, a flush draw, or maybe even a smaller overpair. Also, if I flat call and the fish comes along, I think I probably just gave the fish really good odds on whatever stupid draw he has. When villain 1 3bets, I feel like his value range is very narrow. I'm pretty sure he 3bets AA/QQ pre, and is not sick enough to 3bet JJ on the flop for value. Hence his only possible value hands are 99 or some random 4. If I 4bet, I'm pretty sure he just folds all of his air/draw, and shoves his random 4s. I elect to call, to keep his range wide.

Turn is a great card for me, if I was ahead on the flop, then I'm most certainly ahead on this turn. I think villain 1 is capable of double barreling, so I call again. Raising doesn't seem like an option for the same reasons why I didn't 4bet the flop.

River is not a good card. Flushes got there. He should know that this is a great card for his range, and he should know that I know this. This spot just makes me sick...


As an aside, I am definitely rolled to play 1/2. I definitely have an obsession with playing "optimal" poker. I did consider the call flop, call turn, call river line, which is probably less variance. I just feel like that is super weak, and leaving sooooooooo much money on the table. I want to get used to playing deep, and thinking my way through these tough spots.

Thanks!

wow nasty spot.

i guess we have to assign a ep limp range and since u say he doesnt fold to ur 3bets and hes deep we can assume whatever hes opening with hes flatting PF. we can add any Axdd, SC with a 4, pairs 1010 might be the highest.

The J3hh hand was he in the blind or did he call with tht hand PF?

The way to explained the J3hh hand makes it look like he has a FD. As played I think i would have to fold but im as lost as u here, i just cant see someone making this move this deep without a very strng hand, stronger then basically 2 pair on this flop.

seems like a pretty easy fold to the 3b on the flop
as played fold river

and fwiw call/call/call is far from optimal

Clearly call/call/call is a very weak passive line and is probably not optimal vs most people. The only benefit of call/call/call is you don't get a bloated pot and have "easier" decisions. I personally don't want to start sacrificing more +EV spots just because I'm too scared to play deep.

As for fold to flop 3bet... you think he has no air in his range?

meh we beat a fd so we're like 65% at best, 60ish vs the nfd
if its some strange 1/2 villain who is capable of showing up with 73o here then call/call/call but i dont want to play for 400bb here with KK, because very few (none) villains at 1/2 will 3b bluff here

if you call you must plan to call blank turns and rivers and i just see us getting stacked too often

ideally i'd want to raise/bet/bet but once he 3b's i dont want to try catch a bluff for 400bbs, because as you said he is never betting JJ for value here so KK is just a bluff catcher

yeah, i hate it, AA and KK are just so bad so deep, if you had like AxAd you could fold flop cos you have blockers to Adxd, but on this river, you're beaten anyway, you raised flop and called turn, he doesnt expect you to fold unless hes spewy (like betting A9 for value is), which J3ss sounds like to me, but i dont like to call flop... Tank and hero fold.

The thing I find most interesting is that I see an answer to the hand written in your second paragraph where you note "He almost never folds to my 3bet though, because I assume he thinks he has implied odds against my big pairs".

Based on the play of the hand, I'd say Villain is right about having good implied odds vs. your big pairs. At every stage of the hand, Hero is seeking a way to conclude his over pair is good in the face of unrelenting aggression from an ABC Villain acting like he is exploiting someone who can't lay down an overpair.

Maybe Hero can find a good enough reason to call the flop 3-bet, though I think a fold is best followed by a 4-bet / fold line. (Yes, yes, I know folding here is potentially exploitable but we are playing a live 1/2 vs an ABC player who we think is trying to exploit our over valuation of over-pairs.)

I would fold the turn bet for all the reasons I'd fold the flop bet plus the new information that villain is willing to make a third bet here.

And if somehow I were facing a river bet now that the flush came in, I'd fold here too. Of course its possible that villain took all 4 of his post flop bets with top pair or air but nothing in the description of villain would lead me the expect that.

Summary:

The flop raise was good in concept, but too small ($30 into an $85 pot)
Fold to the 3-bet based on your read quoted above.
Fold to the turn bet.
Fold to the river bet.

DrStrange

4bet/folding flop

A tough spot, indeed. I think opponent could play a flush draw like this. Or a four. Or 99. The only thing you beat here is a bluff. But what bluff hand could he have that he'd be willing to play for so much (unless he just decided to run a three steet bluff). I think it's a fold on the river. I think calling the flop wouldn't be bad for pot control. The heck with the bad player -- what draw can he really have here other than a flush?

as played you, i easily fold river... there is just nothing that you beat and i don't think he is bluffing it often enough.

As played, fold. Calling rather than 3betting flop seems fine to me.

I would predict he's full here more than he has a flush.

As played fold river.

This hand is a lot more interesting if the action is the same and the flush doesn't come. If the guy does have an airball here, congratulate him and tell him to move up in stakes and leave you alone.

The advanced level lesson here is open up and vary your play enough so that good villains can't put you on a narrow enough range such that the he can't really use the line he used (if he indeed had nothing).

I actually don't mind the flop/turn play but the river is a fold. Also just because villain knows how to iso-raise fish and has a decent concept of bet sizing does not mean he's capable of thinking on this many levels or that he's capable of a 3bet flop/3 barrel bluff line. Also from your description I doubt he's overvaluing TT-QQ or even 4x at this point (maybe A4).

what you're saying essentially is that villain pwned OP and no matter what OP does (be it call or fold) he was pwned by a wide range.

villain never(or like 95% of time) has TT-QQ here based on PF action

Anyone else notice that villain has only 515 left and is betting 400 into a $585 pot instead of shoving?

I have no idea what this means though...maybe FPS with quads?

I agree with everyone who says fold on flop and turn (although if I'm being honest, most of the time I probably can't fold flop either).

I agree that if this is a bluff, it is well put together and perfectly suited to the board and hero's actual hand. Paying off $400 OTR with only 2 pair... after the board hits a large amount of the hands that villain could limp/call with implied odds value... let it go after a minute or two in the tank and tell him you folded a T high flush or something. (to try and squeeze something out of him about what he had... unlikely he could resist showing a bluff)

Also, after V2 calls pre, checks the 944dd flop... why does he have a draw that we need to deny odds to by raising? Most likely he whiffed & if he is like most fish, if he has a flush draw - its the nuts and he is calling anyways, plus we need to focus on the big stack V1.

With this in mind, could we not call the flop, and make the raise on the turn (when the blank peels off?) - alternatively, call down all the way and hope youre good.

I think I just start calling down reasonable sized bets vs the flop donk (and bet if checked to on later streets). If we raise the flop, I think we're basically turning our hand face up vs a good player in a deep stack situation (i.e. he's going to eventually fold worse hands vs make us pay big with better hands). I'm pot controlling and letting him bluff off chips.

I'm not too worried about giving great odds to the other fish in the hand. He has to (a) have the draw we're worried about and (b) have that draw come in, so this doesn't concern me as much as overplaying TP with deepstacks.

3betting the flop here is only good if villain donks out here with a 9 or a FD. If he donks out with a flush draw but he's willing to 3bet a good draw (Axdd) than we have to take the line that OP did which is call down every street to a blank. However the river is not a blank and villain fired so I think we have to fold here. I think I prefer flatting the donk bet however and taking the same line.

easy fold river

+2

Seriously, this guy seems like a pretty gnarly player, as played fold river and wait for a better spot, awful river, but I think he has a 4, is that totally monsters under the bed? From my live experience, they almost always seem to have the 4 there somehow.... You want to be the one with the trips, not the overpair when the betting gets heavy...
PLUS, just go get all these fish at the table.......
You sound pretty gnarly too, it depends if you want to go big with this guy, i think you can find a better spot...
Usually at table like this, some fish will take that guys money on a suck out, and then you just take it from the fish with much less risk....
FRom my somewhat limited experience, i like to just chop up the fish with the other good players....