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1/1: Middle set against wife and unknown 1/1: Middle set against wife and unknown

03-12-2015 , 04:43 PM
It doesn't look like there's much of a conversation to be had here, so I'm going to move on and suggest to OP:

1) Flatting over 3betting pre.

2) Shoving flop and calling with the plan of getting in in on pretty much every turn are both fine. I would imagine the husband/wife dynamic would severely limit her calling range to AA, TT, KQ and maybe AK, but maybe V2 would look you up.
1/1: Middle set against wife and unknown Quote
03-12-2015 , 06:15 PM
Square Rounder: I didn't mean for my posts to come off as hostile or attacking you personally. I just didn't have time to write out lengthy posts. Apologies if it came off that way.

I do think you're being overly optimistic about how well we can play postflop when our 3b is called. What do we do on a Kxx flop? Qxx? Txx? Are we going to bet/fold low flops? Bet/call low flops? etc. etc. The reason these spots suck for us is that V1 almost always check/folds when behind JJ and continues when ahead of JJ. We're going to make far more mistakes than she will.

Also, Willyoman makes some good points in favor of flatting otf, planning to gii on all turn cards. (I hadn't considered the wife dynamic there at all!)
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03-13-2015 , 02:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay S
Square Rounder: I didn't mean for my posts to come off as hostile or attacking you personally. I just didn't have time to write out lengthy posts. Apologies if it came off that way.

I do think you're being overly optimistic about how well we can play postflop when our 3b is called. What do we do on a Kxx flop? Qxx? Txx? Are we going to bet/fold low flops? Bet/call low flops? etc. etc. The reason these spots suck for us is that V1 almost always check/folds when behind JJ and continues when ahead of JJ. We're going to make far more mistakes than she will.

Also, Willyoman makes some good points in favor of flatting otf, planning to gii on all turn cards. (I hadn't considered the wife dynamic there at all!)
I think you are mistaking my motivations. It is not that I am at all optimistic about anything if we proceed past the flop. JJ is a potential poison pill in this hand. It is just good enough to stack off with. That is where my preference to end the hand pre flop comes from, so that is why I can not bring myself to stomach a call. The 3bet has the best chance of ending the hand, with the folds I want or the 4bet that lets me know I am no good. The last thing I want to do is walk the minefield that any flop will be. So, if I must walk that minefield, I only want to do it in position and with the lead against as few hands as possible.
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03-13-2015 , 05:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Square Rounder
I think you are mistaking my motivations. It is not that I am at all optimistic about anything if we proceed past the flop. JJ is a potential poison pill in this hand. It is just good enough to stack off with. That is where my preference to end the hand pre flop comes from, so that is why I can not bring myself to stomach a call. The 3bet has the best chance of ending the hand, with the folds I want or the 4bet that lets me know I am no good. The last thing I want to do is walk the minefield that any flop will be. So, if I must walk that minefield, I only want to do it in position and with the lead against as few hands as possible.
LOL
1/1: Middle set against wife and unknown Quote
03-13-2015 , 07:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Square Rounder
I think you are mistaking my motivations. It is not that I am at all optimistic about anything if we proceed past the flop. JJ is a potential poison pill in this hand. It is just good enough to stack off with. That is where my preference to end the hand pre flop comes from, so that is why I can not bring myself to stomach a call. The 3bet has the best chance of ending the hand, with the folds I want or the 4bet that lets me know I am no good. The last thing I want to do is walk the minefield that any flop will be. So, if I must walk that minefield, I only want to do it in position and with the lead against as few hands as possible.
So often I hear folks at the table say, I hate jacks.
Me, I LOVE jacks. I'll take jacks every hand. But In a raised pot, I play them much like twos or other small pocket pairs. Because, to my mind, if there's been a raise, jacks become a small pair. I definitely want to see flops, esp in position, but I can fold jacks post flop if any over card comes. I don't ever want to get wedded to them and I don't care if I get bluffed off them in a small pot.
So here, I'd just call preflop. If we flop an over pair to the board, we can play poker and we can use position and reads to make decisions. There's no reason to blindly go broke with jacks. If we flop a set, we play it like the nuts. If over cards come, I just muck.

I don't three bet jacks, typically, because if opponents play back and four bet, their range is now AA, KK, QQ and AK, and I'm not faring well against that range. I'd rather keep the pot smaller preflop, see a flop and go from there. If I raise to 30 with JJ, and V 4!, it's a fold. I don't want to get raised off this hand preflop.

With position, in a hand with a raise and callers, when stacks are relatively deep, I flat jacks and see a pot. If the action is limped to me I raise jacks. If I am first in the pot, I usually raise jacks, once in a while flat for deception. If I have jacks and there's a raise and callers and I am short stacked, I might jam jacks preflop, or if there's a raise and no callers and V is short stacked, I might raise enough to put V all in.

A set of jacks unimproved can never be the nuts on the river, (always either a higher set or a possible straight) so even when you flop hard, the hand requires some thought.

I might be very wrong but I think that if you rarely 3! JJ preflop, you're probably not making a big mistake. With stacks deep enough to set mine, just calling with JJ is my preference in most cases.

Last edited by Dutchstreetfish; 03-13-2015 at 07:53 AM. Reason: Typo
1/1: Middle set against wife and unknown Quote
03-13-2015 , 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Square Rounder
The plan is get a better idea of what we are up against, I am not looking into the future to know we flop middle set, but it actually makes little difference.

V2 called, so we can eliminate AA, KK and provably QQ from her range before we even act.

V1 raised early and AA, KK and QQ are certainly in her range. I would like some idea if we are ahead or behind. A call gives us no information, but pretty clearly eliminates AA, KK and QQ from our range. So, like V2, our call gives information and gets none.

If we call, and see a flop all below J, are we ahead or behind?

If we call and see a flop with AJx, are we ahead or behind?

I am not in love with JJ here, so I would rather 3bet, knowing I will fold to a 4bet and limit my loss to 30 instead of doubling someone up.

How much LLSNL have you played?!? I've seen tons of people overcall QQ+ at 1/2 and 2/5. 1/1 makes it even more likely.

JJ vs a typical EP raiser is a typical call because we have no continuing ability. They raise? We fold and lose all our equity against hands like AK (probably half their range)

Also, raising and V1 calling doesn't eliminate AA or KK from their range. Tons of Vs won't 4 bet ever, regardless of their holding. Just because you and presumable many on this site would 4 bet AA doesn't mean typical Vs will
1/1: Middle set against wife and unknown Quote
03-13-2015 , 11:51 AM
Some good discussion here! Dutchstreetfish summed up my thoughts on JJ exactly: play them hard when you're the aggressor, play like a mid pocket pair when someone else is the aggressor.

Results:

Given stack sizes and the draw heavy board, I snap-jammed after V2 called the flop bet. My wife knows I'm never bluffing in this spot, and I don't know if V2 is the type of player to stack off with top pair or a flush draw, so I thought it was a decent shove for value. If they had both folded, I would have showed the hand to show I had a monster and there were no shenanigans in trying to trap V2's chips in the middle. I also indeed was kind of giving my wife a signal: unless you have the nuts or close to it, get out of the way.

As it turns out, after I jammed, my wife let out a grunt of disgust then joked that "there's no marriage in poker" and called for her stack, then V2 snap-called as well! I tabled my set, my wife tabled AA for top set, and V2 tabled KQo (black) for the flopped nuts Turn and river bricked, V2 scoops pot on her first hand at the table. Since it was a fun, friendly table, we all kind of laughed about how it played out, even though the last person I wanted winning that pot took it down! I had them both covered and still had chips, and felt like I played it correctly and it was a cooler of sorts.

I know set over set is rare, but I can't even begin to do the math on straight over set over set. Anyone care to give it a go?
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03-13-2015 , 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swanhatch
I know set over set is rare, but I can't even begin to do the math on straight over set over set. Anyone care to give it a go?
It's obviously 100%.
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03-13-2015 , 12:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman
It's obviously 100%.
It sure felt like it after this hand!
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03-13-2015 , 12:39 PM
The real bummer is that while you're drawing nearly dead, you also block your wife's ability to boat up, so her equity decreases quite a bit, as well. It's a monster stack off for KQo.
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03-13-2015 , 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willyoman
The real bummer is that while you're drawing nearly dead, you also block your wife's ability to boat up, so her equity decreases quite a bit, as well. It's a monster stack off for KQo.
We realized that as soon as the cards were shown, too. We each had blockers from boating up against V2 (I at least would have won a side pot with a boat even if a 10 came). Our best hope was a J turn and A river to hit the bad beat jackpot, then the whole table would have been happy. But that's probably less likely than flopping straight over set over set.
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03-15-2015 , 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot
How much LLSNL have you played?!? I've seen tons of people overcall QQ+ at 1/2 and 2/5. 1/1 makes it even more likely.

JJ vs a typical EP raiser is a typical call because we have no continuing ability. They raise? We fold and lose all our equity against hands like AK (probably half their range)

Also, raising and V1 calling doesn't eliminate AA or KK from their range. Tons of Vs won't 4 bet ever, regardless of their holding. Just because you and presumable many on this site would 4 bet AA doesn't mean typical Vs will
Coming up on 5,000 hours of LLSNL, I have seen QQ fold, 3bet and call. I have seen 72 off call 3bets. I have seen 3bets from any two suited cards. I have seen AA limp/check/call the whole way. Just last night, I folded my button pre to a raise and 3bet and watched the BB, in his first hand at the table, triple up with 73off, hitting running gut shots on the turn and river, facing heavy betting from AA and AK on a AK5 flop.

So, how do you really put anyone on any range? Me, I try to use a reasonable range, but always keep my eye out for that unreasonable holding.
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