1/1 at Mohegan Sun

V1: My wife in the 10 seat. Only her second time playing cash, we used to play a lot of bar tournaments together for years. She hit some money on the slots and decided to play some poker. Since she's not primarily a cash player and is playing for fun, she's pretty much playing TAG ABC poker. Stack size is about $80. The table is aware we're married.

V2: Young woman who just sat at the table in seat 2. This is her first hand, so no reads. Sitting with $100 max buy-in.

Hero: Late 30's average schmo in seat 4. Image doesn't matter in this hand as my wife knows I play solid for the most part, and I'm as unknown to the girl in seat 2 as she is to me. I cover both (about $180).

V1 raises to $8 in early position (likely AJ+ or AQ+, 99+), V2 calls, hero looks at JJ.

Hero? (I know the thread title gives away some of the flop info, but I'd still like to know thoughts on preflop play.)

(I found this to be an interesting hand given the dynamic of playing against my wife. I'll note we don't purposefully softplay each other, and being super low stakes for live full of recreational players, I'm not sure how aware of our play against each other the other players will be. Curious how people would play this hand, and I think the results are interesting as well.)

3bet to 30, you crush their ranges.

Best advice you'll get ITT: don't tell your wife you called her "V1."

I'm okay with just calling pre if she's only continuing with hands that crush you.

"V1" and "V2" do seem inappropriate considering I was up against two women. Yikes.

Snap fold. Never stack your wife, the $80 isn't worth the grief.

Lol...honestly, that's never an issue with us. My money is her money and vice versa, and I wouldn't mind if she stacked me, I know she wouldn't care if I stacked her. We like to play poker, and try to treat each other the same as any other opponent. The fact that if I stack her I'm just giving her back the money to buy back in or play the slots doesn't factor in.

Pre is a flat call.

The above is a totally insufficient reason to raise.

I find the part about playing against your wife both funny and odd. You seem to be saying that you don't soft play each other, but there is some unusual dynamic between you. No idea what that means, but I guess you'll explain...

I don't perceive an unusual dynamic between us (other than knowing how each other plays better than others would), but more an interesting dynamic based on how other players at the table and in the hand may perceive married couples/significant others/family members to play against each other. And perhaps there are some subconscious things at play when playing against your spouse that may come into play later in the hand...

I like the 3bet to 30.

Crushing their ranges has nothing to do with it though.

I am looking to narrow the ranges we put them on and get heads up if possible.

I have a tough time just calling early position raisers with JJ. By just calling, you are choosing to ignore what they would tell you on a 3bet. Do they call a 3bet, out of position, with AA, KK or 88-? I have just seen too many times where JJ ends up as an over pair and then forgets AA is not an unlikely hand from an early position raiser.

With the plan being what, exactly?

Being an unknown I like Flatting, it's just my default play with JJ vs an UTG raise. The idea is usually to treat it like a small pair or a big pair, and I really hate 3 bet folding JJ. We can adjust our strategy based on specific boards etc but Flatting seems best with no real info.

What exactly is the point of 3betting JJ against a range of AJ+/99+? It's not for value; we're certainly behind OP's wife's continuing range. We don't ever get better hands to fold. We'd have initiative, but she's rarely going to make mistakes against our hand postflop. (And we hate getting 4bet; 3b/f and 3b/c are both pretty bad.) Just flat and play poker.

But we're gonna flop middle set, so we should raise 3bet pre for value..lol

in all seriousness, flatting here is fine.

The plan is get a better idea of what we are up against, I am not looking into the future to know we flop middle set, but it actually makes little difference.

V2 called, so we can eliminate AA, KK and provably QQ from her range before we even act.

V1 raised early and AA, KK and QQ are certainly in her range. I would like some idea if we are ahead or behind. A call gives us no information, but pretty clearly eliminates AA, KK and QQ from our range. So, like V2, our call gives information and gets none.

If we call, and see a flop all below J, are we ahead or behind?

If we call and see a flop with AJx, are we ahead or behind?

I am not in love with JJ here, so I would rather 3bet, knowing I will fold to a 4bet and limit my loss to 30 instead of doubling someone up.

So you're saying you're assuming OP's wife is only continuing with hands that beat us, and we want to spend 30BBs finding out if we're beat? I've never heard someone recommend a 3bet as a loss prevention technique, so I appreciate the creativity.

In general at LLSNL, we're 3betting JJ for value against people that are not folding worse. We're okay if we lose pots occasionally, even betting with overcards on the board for value in some cases, because getting more money in while we're often ahead is what we're trying to accomplish.

In this case, JJ is not a value 3betting hand against, as OP stated, a tight opening range in early position. We're not calling purely to setmine, as it appears we have position and hopefully OP has some assumptions of how his wife will play postflop. We're not exactly flying blindly here.

I hate playing couples at live tables because they always soft play each other, even worse when you have multiple couples at the same table. You can just ship it and hope either you or your wife has the best hand and split winnings. Not sure why casinos even allow couples/groups to play at the same table when its just so easy to collude.

Here's what happened:

I smooth-called the $8 for a couple reasons.

1. Same reasons as have been mentioned in this thread. Unless I'm the aggressor, I tend to play JJ fairly passively, like a mid pocket pair. This is especially true with a complete unknown in the hand, as I have no idea what she'll continue with if I 3-bet. I opted to take a flop in position.

2. I didn't want to 3-bet big and have anyone at the table thinking we were colluding and making a play against the third opponent. If I had 3-bet, that obviously wouldn't have been the case, but I know how some people perceive couples at the table, and I wanted to avoid any illusion of collusion. This was only 5% of my reasoning, but it was there in the back of my mind.

All others fold.

Flop comes A J 10, 2 hearts. My wife bets $20 into a $24ish pot. I don't think she's c-betting with KK or QQ here on this board, but definitely AK, AQ, any 2 pair hands, sets, and the straight (except maybe KhQh given the high hand promotion and monster draw since the Ah was on the flop). V2 flat calls.

Hero?

First, if KQ wasn't in her range pf, we can't just decide to put it back in her range on the flop.

She has 24 combos of AK/AQ, 3 combos of TT, maybe 1-2 of AJ. That's about 27-30 combos we crush, compared to the 3 AA combos that crush us. V2 is obv pretty wide here. Sounds like an easy raise. Given stack sizes, we can just shove for value; we're getting called by worse pretty often.

I am not assuming V1 is "only continuing with hands that beat us". I am assuming she only 4bets with hands that beat us. Just to be clear, I am not expecting a 4bet and I am not trying to be creative. I am expecting fold fold and to end a hand that has a lot of potential for tough decisions leading to potential for mistakes. A secondary expectation is call fold, or call call, which both let us know we are likely ahead and has the bonus of adding to a pot we are ahead in. I see fold call as the least likely, but certainly possible with no read on V2. I am sorry for not spelling that out. I am still trying to work out exactly what assumptions I need to state and which ones can be assumed.

You say we usually bet JJ for value and I am with you and suggest we are 3betting for value here. We are ahead here far more often than we are not. JJ is ahead of the generous majority of V1's range and ahead of the vast majority of V2's range. Our 3bet is a value bet with lots of bonus value in potentially winning the pot here avoiding tough spots later, building a pot with a call or calls that tell us we are ahead in a hand we now have the lead in, triggering a 4bet whichs lets us know we are not ahead, and maybe even getting QQ to fold. I just don't see how that is not getting great value from a value bet here.

You say we are not calling to set mine, because you are looking for post flop play that clears up where we are. At least set mining, you assume you are behind and either hit the flop or have an easy fold. The value in the set mining call is implied value of the payoff when we hit and a low risk of big losses if we miss. If we were calling to set mine with JJ, at least that is a plan.

If we are not calling to set mine, why are we calling? Are we calling to trap because we are ahead? If we are ahead, I doubt we feel that far ahead. Are we calling because we think we are ahead, but afraid we are wrong, so we are trying to limit our exposure and pray that we gain clarity on the flop? If that is the case, which is what a call sounds like to me, that just seems like a very low value purpose for putting chips in the pot. We have not taken the lead, narrowed the rage we can put V1 or V2 on, thinned the field, or given a better hand a chance to incorrectly fold. We are relying on the flop and our read of post flop actions in front of us to decide where we stand and many flops and plays in front of us fail to provide such clarity. There is a small number of possibilities that give us easy folds, a small number of possibilities that give us easy shoves and a huge number of possibilities that leave us in the same bad spot of having no idea where we are. If the board never defines their hands or ours, are we just calling it down? If we are going to call a flop bet with no more clarity than we have pre, then why not use those same chips to raise pre and put them in the pot with the added purpose of taking the lead, narrowing their range, getting heads up or winning the pot right here, possibly with the worse hand?

To see a call as a value play, you are agreeing that we are very likely to be ahead. If we are very likely ahead, why are we not 3betting?

I was drafting my last post while the OP updated the hand, so do not think I was cheating by looking ahead, but the update illustrates my position rather nicely.

We called with little idea if we were ahead or behind and now have a flop where we are just as clueless on where we are at.

I do not see folding as a real option here. Even if we are behind at the moment, which we have no idea, we have outs to quads/boat against anything but AA where we are down to one out. AK and AQ have gut shot draws to beat us and both of those are well within the range here. Q9 is open ended and while outside of V1's range may be in V2's range.

At this point there is a good case for shoving. We are not getting away from AA or the made straight here, so why call along to the same likely result with two shorter stacks? By shoving, we drive out AK, AQ and Q9 and skip the risk of the draws.

A separate case can be made for just calling it down. Yes, you pay off AA and KQ, unless you suck out, but the draws are in a worse spot than JJ taking their outs against your redraws. This line is hoping that if you lose, the short stacks were so concerned with gett value that they under bet enough to save you a little.

I prefer the shove because I am not folding, so I wou rather put my chips in with more purpose than calling along and drive out a draw that has a chance to beat me.

JJ has far less equity against 99+/AQ+ than you seem to think, even if we throw in a few combos of AJ.
No, no, absolutely not. Postflop actions in this hand will be to get value from opponents' ranges or, in unusual circumstances, to get them to fold parts of their range that beat us. They are absolutely not for information. Get that reasoning out of your head.
This is really flawed. First, we have position, meaning it's possible we can call profitably even if we're not ahead of V1's range. Second, more importantly, being ahead does NOT necessarily mean we should 3bet. V1's current range and V1's range that continues to a 3b are very different, and the latter is a lot more relevant when judging whether we should 3b or not. If all we're doing is isolating ourselves against a part of V1's range that's well ahead of us (hint: that's exactly what we'd be doing), then 3betting is pretty terrible.
Yeah, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say we're never getting QQ+ to fold.

On to the flop.

Shoving is fine, but I see a case for calling. I think you are crushing most hands in ranges, and when you raise, you risk getting folds.

You are crushing so many hands like AQ-AK (heavy part of "V1's" range), as well as hands like Ax, KJ, QJ, QT, KT (V2's range - so many weak broadway pairs + draws, weak one-pair hands, etc).

Of course, heart draws and gut shots are possible. And a heart or broadway straightening card on the turn could kill your action.

That said, I think there's a bit more value in just flatting in position and stacking off every time on all turns. On the turn, V1 could continue to fire or shove herself with her range rich with weaker made hands, and V2 could call with a fairly wide range of pair and pair + draw hands as there would be no indication you are sitting on a monster.

Shoving the flop is definitely an OK play given stacks, texture, dynamics, ranges, etc. I just think it might be a bit more +EV to flat, keep everyone in, use your position to massage the pot, and take a turn. It's a bummer maybe 25% of the time you get a terrible turn card (in terms of ability to get value), but I think it's worth the risk.

If stacks were deeper, I'd definitely want to raise the flop for value.

If the board was the same but monotone, I'd ship flop.

If I was oop, I'd just put the chips in the middle, as well.

The board also has a broadway straight - another reason I think a shove for value gets too many folds.

With position 3-way on this texture vs. the ranges I expect we're facing and with just about one more bet left in stacks, I like just flatting.

I now see how the wife dynamic comes into play a bit. I think she'd be more inclined than average to fold the flop if you shove. It's almost a signal: "Go away."

Just for fun, let's pretend OP's lovely wife only shoves QQ+ and AK 50%. Let's also give her an opening range of AJ+, 99+ and she folds the rest to a 3bet. We have JJ.

AJ 8 combos, AQ 16 combos, AK 16 combos, 99 6 combos, TT 6 combos, JJ 1 combo, QQ 6 combos, KK 6 combos, AA 6 combos

In this spot, we win the pot 45 times and lose 26 times (if we're folding to a shove).

We're betting 30 to win 18.

We win $18 63% of the time and lose $30 37% of the time.

Our win expectation for this hand is $0.42.

Jay S - I am not sure if I am reading in hostility that is not your intention or if the hostility in "seem to think", "No, no, absolutely not", "Get that reasoning out of your head", and "pretty terrible" is what you are intending.

I am genuinely advocating an aggressive line and have what seems to me to be sound reasoning behind doing so.

I am not sure if you are advocating the more passive line on just want to attack the aggressive line as you are doing more attacking my line than providing justification for the passive line.

This is not a right or wrong situation here. Play it passive, play it aggressive, both have their place and both can be rationally supported. I am acknowledging that and giving your position full respect, but I do not see the same in return.

Try not assuming I am a moron just because you prefer a different line.

All in pre flop seeing five cards, sure, but neither one of us is advocating that.

We crush 99 and TT. AA, KK and QQ crush us. AK and AQ may be only slightly behind if they get to see five cards, but are much farther behind if they only get to see the flop.

By raising pre, we took the lead and AK/AQ don't CB the flop on a miss and likely fold when we bet the flop.

So, taking the aggressive line and denying AK/AQ the turn and river, I will stick with "JJ is ahead of the generous majority of V1's range".

I am sorry if I mistook "hopefully OP has some assumptions of how his wife will play postflop" as an indication that we are looking for clarity from post flop activity, but it still reads that way to me.

You are talking about our post flop action. I am talking about V1 & V2's post flop action letting us know if JJ is ahead or behind. If we call and flop comes AKQ, V1 bets ans V2 shoves, how are we getting "value from opponents' ranges or, in unusual circumstances, to get them to fold parts of their range that beat us"? Personally, I am running for the hills with a fold.

So, I am not sure what is "No, no, absolutely not" or how I "Get that reasoning out of [my] head". We called a flop with no idea if we are ahead or behind and you do not want me to look to the action in front of me on the flop to decide if I think I am ahead or behind? By calling on the flop, the action in front of you on the flop is all you really have to determine if you are ahead or behind.

Just because I prefer the 3bet dose not mean that I see it as necessary. We agree that V1's range changes on a 3bet and that the change is more relevant.

I strongly disagree that a 3bet isolates us "against a part of V1's range that's well ahead of us" and will go so far as to say that is not just unlikely, but extremely unlikely.

The portion of V1's range that is well ahead of us, AA, KK, QQ 4bets. (OK, maybe QQ calls, maybe QQ folds, low limit players do crazy things with QQ on a 3bet.)

The portion of V1's range that we are well ahead of, 99, TT, fold (or maybe call with the expectation they are set mining)

If we manage to isolate, it is likely to be with the part of V1's range that is only slightly behind, AK, AQ, seeing five cards, but can be pushed off of the 2/3rds of flops they miss with a CB from us with the lead in the action.

Would it be wrong for QQ to fold here? Absolutely. Have I seen it far too many times in low limit games? Absolutely. Having seen it too many times, I kinda need to include it in the possibilities.

I need to disagree. Not so much with your math, but on what you are applying it to. To apply your conclusion, our choices are raise or fold, ignoring the call option, which is our minimum action with JJ.

Your conclusion is dead on if we are considering bluffing a 3bet with 72. The call is not our minimum action, so the entire 30 would be what we elect to put in the pot against the 18 already in it.

So, we are not betting 30 to win 18.

We have JJ, we are not folding, the call of the raise is our minimum action, so our call is already part of a 26 pot.

We are raising 22 to win 26.

Adopting your fold/shove work, we win 26 63% and lose 22 37%

Check my math, but that looks like $8.42 to me.