2/5 NL. Hero has $700 behind. V has H covered. Active player decides to open UTG+1 to $20, I flat the BTN with 68dd, sb/B.B. complete. Flop: A109ddd. Sb/bb check, V bets $65. I flat. Sb/B.B. fold. Turn 7os. V leads for $170. I think I could jam here to charge all draws... but I didn’t. I decided on a flat. River comes 8os. He decides to open rip. I have about $400 behind at this point. So thinking he could have has KJ with Kd or some sort of combo draw he could easily be doing this with I call it off. V shows us K3dd. To an extent after 3 streets of barreling am I just bluff catching at this point? Do you ever get away from this? Cooler? This hands been bothering me all night long! Been a rough grind lately.

Thanks guys,
Lewis

No considering he opened to $20 utg with k3d proved your read was right he could easily have trips or two pair or am over pair here too not enough to fold .

Typically I won’t slow play a flopped flush against a fish

Not a bad bluff catch.but its still a bluff catch. You really put yourself in a tough spot on the river because of how passively you played it. I think this flop is a raise. With a made(weak) flush AND a straight flush draw. I want to be the one shoving all in. Preferebly before the river. AP i would just shrug call V has a lot of broadway cards in his range that may have flopped pair plus flush draws/combodraws.

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I'm a fish so I would fold pre...sorry if this is to tight for everyone
as played on the flop I'm raising flop to around $200 and Jaming turn or calling off

3-bet pre or fold.

As played this is a very good line by villain. There should be very few nut flushes in his UTG+1 opening range so his bets look bluffy/semi-bluffy.

I think I like playing this flop more aggressively vs. villain's most likely UTG+1 holdings (results aside). He's going to have a lot of AxKd, AA, TT, AT that you're in pretty good shape against.

As played, you might be able to find a fold here on the river. Villain could have a lot of bluffs with the Kd, but he should slow down because your button flatting range has a LOT of strong hands by the river (flushes and straights mainly). Even if you were calling down 2 streets with the Qd...it's going to be paired with a J a lot and has now made the nut straight. He can't think you're flatting 2 streets with JUST a bare diamond that isn't the nuts, so I think he gives up here with his bluffs sometimes.

Still a 50-50 spot though. Calling can't be wrong I Don't think. Tough beat.

No. Played it fine, although I probably raise the turn.

+1

If the A wasn't on the flop we could discuss the merits of a fold. Given V raised pre and the A and T are on the board there are so few flushes V should have here it's probably impossible to fold. KQ, KJ, after that we are already stretching.

Did not play it fine. Pre is very bad.

Valid point that has been made several times. I think most players have flatted a suited one gapper in a raised multi-way pot at some point or another though. $700 deep for $20 I don't think this is terrible OTB as long as you have a plan.

+1 considering stack sizes and position this is a fine call/3bet.

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Are you ever 3betting this hand?

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35-1 OTB with a suited hand, one that we can potentially steal on a ton of boards? Ummm yeah, he played it fine on all streets.

3-betting allows us to narrow villain's range while keeping ours wide in position. Flatting gets us in situations EXACTLY like this where we lose our stack.

I’m probably folding this pre, but if you’re gonna call and get that flop, then yes, you are gonna lose everything because you have to see it through. He has sooooo many worse hands in his range he is going to use to try to get you off yours.

He played it like a slot machine. He tossed in some money, thought he got lucky, and still lost everything. It's exactly why people think poker is synonymous with the lottery.

3bet pre and Kd3d isn't in his range and it makes this hand so much easier for you.

As played pre, I'd raise turn.

As played turn, you're facing flush or bluff with Kd. Can't see anyone ripping a set here or even QJ with a diamond in their hand but that's about all. Everything else is a check/call in position.

seems fine to me, flat is fine in a lot of live games, 3 betting fine as well, raising at any point post is a disaster, gotta make sure you keep worse hands in. really tough to fold this river vs someone you think is active, well played overall i think

Why does it make a difference whether it's live or online as to making the correct decision preflop?

By calling in a pot that would otherwise have been taken down pre, or more likely gone HU against a narrow range, we've let the sb and bb with super wide ranges get into a pot cheaply.

If 3bet is correct online, it's correct live too - and it's even better here given the table action prior and how deep the stacks are.

Also - can you explain why raising post-flop is a disaster? Do you think AA, TT, 99 fold to a turn raise? Or AKd, AQd? Pretty sure without a diamond in their hand villian isn't betting AK, AQ, AJ on the river anyway - and some of that will form part of their check/fold range on the river.

The way we've played the hand to this point disguises that we have a flush pretty well... so it gives us more scope to raise turn IMO.

what hands in our range are we going to raise the turn with? our hand is ahead of nearly all of OP's, another diamond or the board pairs though and we've got a nightmare decision on the river.

Don't mind calling all 3 streets here - but you do open yourself up to some very difficult river decisions on that board run out.

I read the results and I still call river against this player type.

For those who wanna 3b pre: why? He's not likely to fold pre and we create a low SPR scenario with a speculative hand. He may fold *this* hand pre if we 3b, but even whales have some sense they should be tighter up front.

Flat pre, raise flop IMO. He's not folding sets or AJ-AK with a diamond so let's get to building a pot.

1. Not likely to fold pre. Why? He's showed down with Kd3d - if you think he should know that he needs to be tighter pre, gets 3bet to $65-70 pre and he's raising Kd3d top open, you don't think he has a whole bunch of his opening range that he decides that he's probably behind and throws away?
and if not, then you reduce bluffs and 3bet bigger with stronger holdings but we don't know this about V yet.
2. what are you 3betting pre then, and what hands are in your bluff range? Deeper stacks gives you the chance to widen bluffing range.
3. what's your calling range here and how are you mixing it up to offset.

IME when whales open garbage they dont fold to 3b pre. That's why they're whales. Now, if I missed what villain's opening range looks like, then I'll take that into account. But I didn't see in the OP where any suited K was in the villain's +1 opening range.

There's a ton of assumptions I'm making because OP really didnt give us much to go off. Against a fishy player who is there to gamble, I'm taking a linear value range against him. Until he shows he can open/fold pre, i'm not 3b him with cheese. Straight value, baby. If we are deeper, I can get behind some bluff 3 betting. But at 700 eff (not deep at all at 2/5 BTW) and regularly playing multi-way pots we just don't have the stack depth to maneuver.

I'll call if deep enough with my speculative hands when I have position. Against this player type I won't have much of a preflop bluff range. Why? Hes likely not bluffable. Plus you can't play big pots with the whale if hes gonna fold pre.

Your last line i think alludes to 'how am I balancing my UTG1 vs BTN range'. If the whale is an unknown, I'm not thinking about balance. I'm trying to learn how to exploit the whale's tendencies.

Yeah - all cool.

Given that he shows down Kd3d - the assumption is that it's in his range - and maybe that's information that Hero doesn't have pre-flop.

There are also guys that don't fold pre, but they insta muck when they miss flop - so if they're opening super wide, you can Iso. and steal a bunch of flops from them.

Although, I think I've probably just made different assumptions than you have based on the information provided. I do think there is merit to play slow in position against these guys - I just don't like letting SB and BB get in so cheap against a guy who clearly isn't very good.

140bb is deep enough to shimmy the hips a little.

No it doesn't, but I am not gonna convince you so...

3! here loses a ton of post flop value which, incidentally, is where good players make their money in NL.

Fine as played. Sleep soundly.

SleepEV of calling > SleepEV of folding

How does 3! lose you a ton of post-flop value?

There's a reason that good players 3! bad players and isolate them in position all the time in the high stakes games... it's because they can outplay 1 person with a deeper stack that they know isn't great, rather than having to go multi-way.

They're certainly don't 3! to strip value from their own hand.