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Old 05-23-2018, 01:29 PM   #1
Javanewt
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X/R on flop w/ AK

1/2, nine-handed. Most of the table is weak/passive with the exception of V.

V (~$325) YWG, HJ: Aggressive reg who can make moves and is a very aware player. He raises a lot in LP, 3bets, calls 3bets with speculative hands, bluffs/semi-bluffs in the appropriate spots, value bets, including thin, can fold, etc. He might be a semi-professional player Ė travels to tournaments, plays online, etc.

H (~$350) MAWW, BTN: Tight and aggressive, but not as aggressive as V. Raising more in position than the rest of the table (except for V), almost never limps in, folds pre more than almost anyone (including from SB), has 3bet a couple of times. Hasnít been caught bluffing (although V knows I can/will bluff) and usually has a decent/good hand at showdown.

OTTH:

Couple of limps to V who bets $15
H on BTN raises to $45 w/ AhKd
Fold to V who calls

Flop (~$90) Qs3d2c
V checks, Hero bets $60, V x/r to $200 leaving about $80 behind.

If V had a value hand, I just donít know why would raise so much. Itís just over 3x, but why leave $80 behind? Why not bet $120 - $150 to bring me in or shove? Or flat Ė there are really no draws that I can have. However, heís never folding for his last $80, and I canít beat a pair of 2s. I was truly confused. Just fold a move on?
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Old 05-23-2018, 01:48 PM   #2
shorn7
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

Against this specific opponent, I might check behind my entire range here. Board is super non-threatening and we fear no turn card really. This will protect our check flop range when we have big hands as well. And IP, we can evaluate the turn when he fires and potentially call with our nut no pair.

AP, I think you have to fold and it isn't particularly close. The problem is that if he has a Queen, he likely has blockers to any card that we would consider an out. So we probably don't have 6 outs when behind. I agree his sizing is really strange, but I just don't like our chances at this stack depth. If we were much deeper, we could call and play the turn, but no matter what comes or what we do it is all going in on the turn.

One thing to remember in general is that almost all players play much more straightforward in 3! pots, especially with shallower stacks, because there just isn't enough FE to make plays.
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Old 05-23-2018, 01:53 PM   #3
Joey913
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

Yes, fold and move on. We can bluff catch when we have AA/KK in the same spot. If he's a semi-pro he probably recognizes you are tighter you have 3-bet and c-bet here and you aren't that deep. This is more much often value than a bluff.
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Old 05-23-2018, 02:02 PM   #4
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

Fold and move on is the correct answer. Villain is going to be aware that with SPR < 4 you are not folding a value hand so he will have few bluffs.

Don't let the bet sizing in this situation confuse you. Once he check/raises he is committed and leaving some behind is likely trying to confuse you. Villain set the sizing so he is never folding unless he is on a bezerko air bluff and even then he probably calls.
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Old 05-23-2018, 10:51 PM   #5
Koss
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

A common mistake (and one I occasionally sometimes still make) of some better than average players is to make a raise size that might make sense relative to the pot but not the stacks. Don't read too much into him leaving $80 behind. The much more relevant action is that you have just been check/raised in a 3-bet pot, and you have to call $140 into a pot of $350 with AK high.

I'm not sure this is a great flop to c-bet either. I really don't see him folding a pair to a single barrel here. I guess AK is an OK hand to try and run a multi-street bluff with as it blocks AA/KK/AQ/KQ, but it also has showdown value. It might be better to bluff with some of your 3-bet bluffs like A4s or A5s. If he is raising and calling 3-bets too light then you don't need to barrel him off worse hands, you can just check it down or look to bluff catch.
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Old 05-23-2018, 11:31 PM   #6
bigdave2304
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

I would cbet smaller, 40-45 dollars. Ap fold.

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Old 05-24-2018, 12:32 AM   #7
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

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Originally Posted by Koss View Post
A common mistake (and one I occasionally sometimes still make) of some better than average players is to make a raise size that might make sense relative to the pot but not the stacks. Don't read too much into him leaving $80 behind.
Yup, I make this mistake all the time, and see it often too. Whoops.

I see the merit in checking behind here, however I also want to make a case for cbetting:

V is very aggressive and capable of making moves, but everyone agrees that with these stack sizes, he's not likely to be check-raising as a bluff here. A cbet has immediate fold equity, and defines the hand pretty clearly. As played, I think it's a definite fold to the x/r.

But if we check behind, unless we hit one of the remaining 6 aces or Ks on the turn, we're in a fairly ambiguous spot. V sounds capable of betting with air, betting with a strong made hand that was going for a x/r on the flop, or betting with a merged range (something like 7-7 or even 3-4) with the exact purpose of getting called down by ace high.

Maybe it's me not being comfortable with and trying to avoid ambiguous situations - I'm not a strong enough player to accurately judge these scenarios and I end up playing the guessing game - so I'd rather be the aggressor and cbet to find out where my AK is at immediately.
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Old 05-24-2018, 08:36 AM   #8
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

Yup, fold, next hand please.

I'd check back this dry board as I would with KK+. Only draw is 54s, little need to protect. If turn is checked, bet most of the time.

Curious on your flop sizing ... would u bet the same $ w/KK on a Qx8s7s board?
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Old 05-24-2018, 09:10 AM   #9
Javanewt
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

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Curious on your flop sizing ... would u bet the same $ w/KK on a Qx8s7s board?
Yes. I think I bet a little bigger than most players on 2+2, at least vs. these players. I usually go a bit higher than half pot. With the exception of V, most of them will call one bet with a Q, smaller pair, second pair, or draw and then give up if I fire again, which I will often do even w/ AK vs. most of them. They rarely raise.

V is the exception, but I rarely vary my betting patterns, especially vs. someone who is probably paying attention.

As stated in another post, I never bet less than half pot (unless maybe the pot is very large and I'm making a river value bet).
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Old 05-24-2018, 09:41 AM   #10
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

You could even go $30 cbet or so in this spot with most of your range.
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Old 05-24-2018, 09:43 AM   #11
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

fold he's basically committing his whole stack hoping you will show up with AA/KK and call.
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Old 05-24-2018, 09:56 AM   #12
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

Pretty much going with the flock here ... check Flop against this 'sticky' opponent to keep the stacks under control. You want to see the Turn and V is more likely to fold to a Turn bet than a Flop bet with weaker holdings that you don't want to offer free cards to prior to showdown. I think V more easily folds Turn than Flop in most hands like this played out PF.

I am going to give V some semi-bluff credit here, like Arag. He will generate a lot of folds here if H doesn't have a Q, or even a lower pp than Q. But he is also willing to sigh call off with his Ace/pair/straight draw ... what ever it is. I've done this before and then I don't have to show first when I leave a little behind.

V could also be polarizing AA/KK/set against an admittedly aggressive player or polarizing a set specifically attacking AA/KK hands that H might hold. If H did have AA/KK/AQ here I suspect she calls off. GL
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Old 05-24-2018, 11:50 AM   #13
shorn7
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

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Originally Posted by GuitarDean View Post
Yup, I make this mistake all the time, and see it often too. Whoops.

I see the merit in checking behind here, however I also want to make a case for cbetting:

V is very aggressive and capable of making moves, but everyone agrees that with these stack sizes, he's not likely to be check-raising as a bluff here. A cbet has immediate fold equity, and defines the hand pretty clearly. As played, I think it's a definite fold to the x/r.

But if we check behind, unless we hit one of the remaining 6 aces or Ks on the turn, we're in a fairly ambiguous spot. V sounds capable of betting with air, betting with a strong made hand that was going for a x/r on the flop, or betting with a merged range (something like 7-7 or even 3-4) with the exact purpose of getting called down by ace high.

Maybe it's me not being comfortable with and trying to avoid ambiguous situations - I'm not a strong enough player to accurately judge these scenarios and I end up playing the guessing game - so I'd rather be the aggressor and cbet to find out where my AK is at immediately.
I think your case makes a lot of sense for a single raised pot post flop. 3! pot dynamics are different, especially at shallower stack depth. Players just play more straightforward overall, so checking behind will not have this V just turn aggro immediately on the turn without proper values (because you will still have QQ+/AK in your range). In a single raised pot, I c-bet this board quite often.
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Old 05-24-2018, 02:17 PM   #14
Javanewt
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

RESULTS:
I was kicking myself for betting the flop vs. this player. He's the only one at the table capable of making moves. My gut told me to shove, but I chickened out. I just didn't understand his bet size, but I beat nothing and he must think I have a decent hand. He was just going for it w/ Ad4d, though I think he was in a get lucky and double-up and/or maybe she has AK (or a hand like TT/JJ, which he knows I'll 3bet) and will fold mode. He was right.
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Old 05-24-2018, 02:36 PM   #15
shorn7
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
RESULTS:
I was kicking myself for betting the flop vs. this player. He's the only one at the table capable of making moves. My gut told me to shove, but I chickened out. I just didn't understand his bet size, but I beat nothing and he must think I have a decent hand. He was just going for it w/ Ad4d, though I think he was in a get lucky and double-up and/or maybe she has AK (or a hand like TT/JJ, which he knows I'll 3bet) and will fold mode. He was right.
Meh, don't beat yourself up too much on this one. V put you on a range and made a bold move. Be thankful he showed as I am pretty confident that if/when you see him again, you will make way more $ off of him than you potentially lost on this hand.
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Old 05-24-2018, 02:40 PM   #16
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

If V wants to have a raising range on this board then Ad4d is a good bluff candidate.

However, I suspect he wouldn't raise any value hands in this spot as there are no turn which slow down your value hands, and villain's value raises are not vulnerable to your bluffs. Villain is probably bluff heavy here, even though he appears selective with his bluffs.

It's easy to say this after results, but hero calling it off could be a good exploitative play. In theory I think it's fine to fold this as long as you're not c-bet/folding all your AK and other air combos.

In the future be careful about c-betting too much against this type of villain. C-betting works against loose passive players because they play trash ranges and don't check/raise much at all, and end up folding very frequently when they miss or allowing us to realize our equity by not check/raising when they don't hit super hard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shorn7 View Post
Meh, don't beat yourself up too much on this one. V put you on a range and made a bold move. Be thankful he showed as I am pretty confident that if/when you see him again, you will make way more $ off of him than you potentially lost on this hand.
We always like to think we are the best player at the table, but I really doubt Java is making any money against this villain considering the way he described villain. In fact he clearly got outplayed in this hand when you consider both players' ranges and is likely to be losing money to this player. This is based not just on this hand but the fact that Java seems to have a lot of respect for the guy's game.
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Old 05-24-2018, 02:56 PM   #17
Javanewt
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

I had the correct read and didn't go with it, which is the only thing that bothers me a little.

I had a hand later where I blind called his BTN straddle from the SB (just felt like it), two more callers (weak/tight/passive), and he checked. I blind bet the flop (nobody was paying attention that I was blind) of Qh9h4s, and he tank folded and showed a Q. At least he still respected my bets

He is definitely one of the better players in this player pool, though, and I need to remember to think carefully and go with my reads or stay out of his way, which is what I usually do.

Oh, and browni, I'm a "she."
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Old 05-24-2018, 02:59 PM   #18
shorn7
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

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Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
If V wants to have a raising range on this board then Ad4d is a good bluff candidate.

However, I suspect he wouldn't raise any value hands in this spot as there are no turn which slow down your value hands, and villain's value raises are not vulnerable to your bluffs. Villain is probably bluff heavy here, even though he appears selective with his bluffs.

It's easy to say this after results, but hero calling it off could be a good exploitative play. In theory I think it's fine to fold this as long as you're not c-bet/folding all your AK and other air combos.

In the future be careful about c-betting too much against this type of villain. C-betting works against loose passive players because they play trash ranges and don't check/raise much at all, and end up folding very frequently when they miss or allowing us to realize our equity by not check/raising when they don't hit super hard.



We always like to think we are the best player at the table, but I really doubt Java is making any money against this villain considering the way he described villain. In fact he clearly got outplayed in this hand when you consider both players' ranges and is likely to be losing money to this player. This is based not just on this hand but the fact that Java seems to have a lot of respect for the guy's game.
I disagree. Yes, he made a bold move and got lucky, but we were near the bottom of our 3! range and would have snapped him off right away with most of the rest of it. It was clear overplay by V IMO and there is no reason why he won't do it again in a similar circumstance.
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Old 05-24-2018, 03:04 PM   #19
browni3141
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

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Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
Oh, and browni, I'm a "she."
Lol, I knew that and was even trying to get it right in my post. I thought I only referred to Villain as "he" and to you as "Java."

Apologies.
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:38 PM   #20
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
RESULTS:
I was kicking myself for betting the flop vs. this player. He's the only one at the table capable of making moves. My gut told me to shove, but I chickened out. I just didn't understand his bet size, but I beat nothing and he must think I have a decent hand. He was just going for it w/ Ad4d, though I think he was in a get lucky and double-up and/or maybe she has AK (or a hand like TT/JJ, which he knows I'll 3bet) and will fold mode. He was right.
Well for one I don't think he's a "professional player". I think it was a bad bluff on his part but your fold was basically standard. Don't get caught up thinking about the times you fold the winning hand when you know it's a small percentage of the time and we win in the long run by folding in those spots and situations.
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Old 05-24-2018, 07:50 PM   #21
Koss
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

This bluff may make sense in bigger games where people might 3bet and cbet wider, but at 1/2 you get snapped off by KK or AA here like every time.
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Old 05-24-2018, 11:16 PM   #22
Homey D. Clown
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

I'm probably cbetting ~32 with my whole range here. 60 doesn't make a whole lot of sesnse imo.
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Old 05-25-2018, 08:47 AM   #23
Javanewt
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

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I'm probably cbetting ~32 with my whole range here. 60 doesn't make a whole lot of sesnse imo.
So interesting. As stated, I never bet less than half pot. I know a lot of people do, but it's just not something I do. Not sure if I should try it or not, but so far not doing it is working out fine

I guess I would have lost $30 fewer in this hand, but if I had a hand to call/shove with (or if I had followed my gut), I would have gotten his stack. If I had raised to $32 and he had check/raised, I wouldn't have gotten his stack.

Lots of ways to look at it.
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Old 05-25-2018, 10:57 AM   #24
shorn7
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

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Originally Posted by Homey D. Clown View Post
I'm probably cbetting ~32 with my whole range here. 60 doesn't make a whole lot of sesnse imo.
No offense but 32 into 90 is asking your whole range to get raised by V's whole range. I never want V to think he can play his hand tricksy like that and put me in a bad spot. So i would be very interested in why you think that is an effective c-bet size.
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Old 05-25-2018, 11:32 AM   #25
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Re: X/R on flop w/ AK

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Originally Posted by shorn7 View Post
No offense but 32 into 90 is asking your whole range to get raised by V's whole range. I never want V to think he can play his hand tricksy like that and put me in a bad spot. So i would be very interested in why you think that is an effective c-bet size.
It's hard for him to have anything on this board and we out-range him pretty badly. If he wants to raise us off a better range then he will lose money long run. I would be very content if V raised his entire range here to this bet. In fact, I believe a larger bet encourages a bluff since it gives a better price. You either have it or you don't.
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