Playing 1-3 for about 30 mins

Early raiser makes it $10
V1 (approx. $250) calls in mid position
Hero (approx. $300) Calls in cutoff with Ace/10 of Hearts
V2 (approx. $250) calls on button

V1 - older woman doesn't seem that competent, misread 2 hands that winners showed not realizing they had straights
V2 - Middle aged African American man, sat down about 5 hands ago


Anyway Flop is J/5/2 with 2 hearts.

Woman checks, I bet $15, The man calls and the woman makes it $40, I call the $40 and the man makes it $80 Woman folds and I call.

I think this may be standard?

Turn is Offsuit King giving me a broadway draw in addition to flush draw. I check and he shoves for $175. How bad is my call for $175? And should I have folded to the $80 reraise?

I would call the $80. If he has a set, he is giving you great odds ($40 to win $230) to win and he is less likely to fold if you hit because the pot is bloated.

As for the turn, your have added equity but all of your outs are not clean.

You 27% equity at the very best but more likely 22%. You need to call $175 to win to win $405. This gives you 2.3 to 1 or 43%.

Looks like calling is a pretty big mistake on the river.

I would play my nut flush draw much harder, but that's me -- I would gii on the flop. Calling the $80 is OK, but you should fold the turn.

You only need just under 30% to call, so it's not terrible, but it is clearly a mistake.

I would play the flop the same way. The check/raise is not folding very often and sometimes the caller has a set, so I'm not sure there's a ton of value in 3betting.

$10 is such a small raise at my table, so I would fully expect to go multiway to the flop if I called. ATs plays fairly well multiway (we're not looking to hit just TP), and we'll be in position on most (if not all) of the field. So I also call preflop. Sorta surprised one of the blinds didn't come along for this cheap price, I'm disappointed we only went 4way.

When checked to me I'd also take a semi-bluff at the pot. I'd also bet a smallish 1/2 PSB; it gives us great immediate odds if called, typically gives us good odds if someone does a lol bad raise size, plus will typically get folds for cheap by those who have missed the flop.

Here's a great example of bad raise sizing. V1's raise size is already giving us our immediate odds to chase our draw, lol. We probably don't have any FE against a check/raiser (although she does fold to the reraise, WTF is she doing?), plus we want other guy to come along to pad the pot for us (and hopefully he's on a dominated draw). I also call here. Unlucky that V2 weirded out and reraised, I didn't see that coming. If I've done the math right, we're being asked to call $40 to win $200, so exactly 5:1; we're already getting the odds to call for our flush draw, and again have no FE against this guy, so super easy call.

Next time do the math for us to help us out. Pot is $240 on the turn and V2 is shoving $175. We have 12 nut outs (I'm guessing it is unlikely our A/T outs are any good), so using the rule of 2 and 4 that gives us about 24% equity, so we need about 3:1 to breakeven, which means we need to face a bet of $120 or less to be profitable. He's bet too much, so we have to fold.

Gifwefoldedtheturn,nicehand,imoG

Yeah, flop is okay, turn should be a fold. But if this is the worst hand of your life, then you're either ridiculously good or ridiculously new. I make bigger mistakes than this at least once per session.

In most cases, we should have little FE against a flop check/raiser (even though, lol, we would have here against V1). In most cases if we got it all-in here on the flop against a check/raiser we'd be a pretty big 2:1 dog.

Based on their play, these opponents seem totally incompetent. I would rarely attempt to try to get them to fold their hand, I would just wait to hit a hand and then take them to value town.

GcluelessNLnoobG

^ +1

Yeah I am probably raising at some point on the flop and ending up gii.

As played we have to fold turn - its really a math calc: simply we have to improve to win - most likely we can only win with a flush or straight...

V1 check/raise/folds and V2 calls/4-bets sitting on either side of OP. Isn't this whipsawing?

Based on the description of the V's, I would assume that it would be mistaking incompetence for malice, but just sayin'...

With 0 FE?



I'd raise pre, as it is, all your outs are clean and V is committed, so it's just a price vs odds calculation and you have IO attached.

There's a fish way of thinking out there that somehow if we get there on turn and V folds, we made a mistake by not shoving flop.

I'm having a hard time putting V2 on a hand. Remember, he just called the original $15 bet (too small, btw), and we just called the $40, which looks so weak. We might have FE, and if not, I still don't mind gii here.

In general, do we think we have much FE against someone who check/raises a flop with 2 others already interested in the hand?

In general, do we think we have much FE against someone who calls a bet and then reraises an EP check/raiser with another player also interested in the hand?

I once folded out a player who min check/raised me twice on the SAME STREET (the flop) getting ~10:1 on calling off his stack, so obviously our FE is never exactly 0 (this was a lol one-of-kind situation I've yet to encounter since). But it's pretty close to 0 here, imo.

And getting it in here against this much strength shown typically means our one pair outs are no good, and are thus at least a big 2:1 dog (and 3:1 dog against sets).

GimoG

So, he's calling the original $15 with a set -- and then min-raises? I just don't see two pair here (what two pair does he have?). This guy must be terrible -- or a genius. Of course, if he's that bad, he's probably not folding a J on the flop. I think the problem (besides betting too small in the first place) was not raising the $40 from the woman, which is what I would have done, but I usually play my draws very aggressively, especially on boards like this.

When faced with two options, like here on the flop, I always take option 1 unless I have a very good reason not to. If I was going to bluff, I'd bluff with a hand like 64o that I would be okay with folding to a raise, but that had the potential to make the nuts on the turn.

option #1 Taking a free card
option #2 Bluffing in a multi-way pot with no reason to think everyone is folding

We're deep enough and opponents bad enough that even if we're check/raised we can typically see a turn profitably; otherwise, we have a chance at taking down a pot with A high on this board (which is a real possibility given this lack of action to us in just a 4way pot).

GimoG

thanks so much for the replies. I ended up calling the turn and he had flopped middle set. I was just so confused at the calling $15 then min-reraising.

I did not hit the river.

Your math is off. Getting 2.3:1, we only need ~30% equity to call. And it's actually $175 to win $415, so we're getting 2.37:1, which means we need 29.7% equity to call here. It's still a fold though, since we only have ~23% against a range of sets and KJ, and I can't imagine V's range being much wider given flop action.

Also, OP, I really dislike your tiny flop lead. Given PF action, I'm guessing the PFR checked the flop, in which case I'm betting more like $30 in this spot.

Can't comment. Haven't been following your life closely enough.

Lol I've played a lot of hands much worse than this.

unless the early raiser was an absolute nit raising only kings and queens I would 3bet pre to 40.

Yes I know we have a hand that plays multiway but whenever I have a choice of either a 3bet or to play fit or fold, I always choose to take over the initiative whenever I have an opportunity.

As played I would jam it over the lady's raise. I'm just looking to take it down. We do have equity, but unless we get lucky we might just brick it out anyway. I would rather use my FE and not rely on the cards coming our way but if he or she does calls, we still have some pretty good equity.

FE isn't about hands. His range isn't that important here if at all, just gauge his strength, he isn't folding.

Range does matter. His calling might not be a bad thing. It might be great.

As I stated, I don't mind the call of the $80, but I would have raised the woman -- I would not be here. Heck, I might have 3! pre, and if I led the flop, it would have been more than $15 -- the only reason I would have bet $15 is to induce.

Thanks for helping me get that correct.