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Old 02-06-2019, 10:57 PM   #26
Koss
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Re: Why straddle?

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Originally Posted by tomdemaine View Post
If 10BB's per 100 is a great winrate 2BBs per round has to eat into that significantly.
You're not just flushing those 2BB down the toilet. You still get a couple cards. I think from playing online my BB winrate was about -1/2 a BB. So yeah, you're costing yourself about a BB an orbit. But if it loosens up the table, and encourages other straddling, it can be worth it.

I have to imagine button straddling is immensely better. My room allows both an UTG straddle and a BTN straddle, with BTN having priority. If I'm in a game where straddling is encouraged, or feels like it's throwing off others, I'll go for the BTN straddle every time. If I have to play a crap hand, I'd much rather do it on the BTN than UTG.
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Old 02-06-2019, 11:22 PM   #27
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Re: Why straddle?

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Explain, please.

When you get a walk on your straddle, it seems to me, you should straddle every chance you get. Free money in the form of the SB and BB.
Well, yeah. But if the point is to push the action/bump the stakes and no one will play, it's not helping the game at all. Of course, it's not a good game and you probably want a table change...but half the table will say "thank goodness he's gone" and start playing hands again.
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Old 02-06-2019, 11:26 PM   #28
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Re: Why straddle?

Button straddling is good for the player doing it and bad for everyone else, I prefer when it's not allowed. And where it is, I won't do it often (unless the blinds are competent regs)

The biggest mistake recs make is calling weak hands out of position, making the blinds act first makes it easier for them to correctly fold.
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Old 02-07-2019, 04:06 AM   #29
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Re: Why straddle?

I believe straddling UTG could very well cost more than a bb per orbit. Feel like the vast majority of players would call a reasonable sized raise with a ton of hands and end up playing a marginal hand oop against a strong range. It'd be a snowball effect of sorts and would lead to some terrible results.
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Old 02-07-2019, 05:26 AM   #30
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Arrow Re: Why straddle?

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I believe straddling UTG could very well cost more than a bb per orbit. Feel like the vast majority of players would call a reasonable sized raise with a ton of hands and end up playing a marginal hand oop against a strong range. It'd be a snowball effect of sorts and would lead to some terrible results.
That's the point. If you are a decent player and you can get the majority of the table to straddle:
1) You are playing a bigger game (i.e. you are playing 2 4 NL with 1 2 NL players for example)
2) You should handle marginal situations like the above better than your your opposition (if you are indeed a better player and not just a foldbot)
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Old 02-07-2019, 07:30 AM   #31
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Re: Why straddle?

If preflop and flop decisions are easier than turn and river decisions, and if you are better than your opponents, you should prefer to have more money left over for those later streets and straddling tends otherwise. This, however, is theory. Maybe if your opponent is playing a half stack the sizings will incline him to put all his chips in on turn w just tp whereas, if he were full stacked he would either get away or not shove or you would be justified to bet smaller and ultimately win less.

Remember when party was all 50bb stacks? That was so easy just playing mechanically.
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Old 02-07-2019, 09:48 AM   #32
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Re: Why straddle?

So what we really need is someone to record their average loss per hand when UTG not straddling for 50,000 hands or so then switch to straddling for another 50,000 and recalculate. Then we can more accurately argue whether the extra loss (if there is one) is worth it for the presumed ancillary benefits. Who is willing to be the guinea pig?
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Old 02-07-2019, 10:20 AM   #33
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Re: Why straddle?

gambling is a helluva drug.

the only time that I straddle UTG is when I am at least 300 BB deep and there is someone at the table tilting really bad and just looking for any reason to blast off their entire stack.

in that scenario, the tilting player is viewing the straddle as dead money and will make some really stupid plays to try to win that straddle. that is very plus EV.

If I am 200 BB deep and the blinds in my straddle are too tight or just really bad players, I will straddle their blinds every single time.

but to be a winning player and straddle UTG almost every single time is losing so much money it is like giving every single player at the table a rebate on the money that you win

Last edited by PFunkaliscious; 02-07-2019 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:17 AM   #34
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Re: Why straddle?

there is no possible way UTG straddling costs more than a BB per orbit. I'm not going to say it's immediately quantifiable but buying the option is worth $x. I imagine it's actually losing .4 BB per orbit, or about 1.2BB per hour but that might be completely trivial. I don't know. I don't play all the time, I'm not a pro anymore, but when i was a pro I always straddled too and still made good money at the game. Not sure if i would have made more not straddling but it can't be a huge difference. It's definitely less than what people think

i guess i will be the guinea pig since I've always been curious so I will post my straddle numbers for the time being until I get lazy or bored with it
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Old 02-07-2019, 11:47 AM   #35
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Re: Why straddle?

this is gonna be fun but i can already think of some hands you would rather straddle than have UTG to open, a hand like Q8s or K9s are snap open folds UTG, but mostly because you can't call a re-raise

had you bought the option these two hands are usually a snap defend getting the extra overlay of one BB (BB defend range is way smaller with the straddle up)

also, what about a hand like 56s which you can raise and call with? if you see it UTG you might wish you straddled
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Old 02-07-2019, 01:19 PM   #36
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Re: Why straddle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine View Post
So what we really need is someone to record their average loss per hand when UTG not straddling for 50,000 hands or so then switch to straddling for another 50,000 and recalculate. Then we can more accurately argue whether the extra loss (if there is one) is worth it for the presumed ancillary benefits. Who is willing to be the guinea pig?
This is only part of the story though. If it induces other players to straddle and we win any of those other straddle pots, we are winning more than we would have had we not induced others to straddle.
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Old 02-07-2019, 01:25 PM   #37
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Re: Why straddle?

Anciliary benefits.
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Old 02-07-2019, 01:40 PM   #38
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Re: Why straddle?

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Originally Posted by tomdemaine View Post
Anciliary benefits.
Yes, but one such pot could easily be 10 or 20 or 50 BB larger by the time it gets to the river as a result. At that point if we were -1.5 BB for 5 orbits UTG wasn't it worth it?
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Old 02-07-2019, 01:47 PM   #39
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Re: Why straddle?

ancillary benefits are definitely worth what you are losing directly in some games...if you are the best player at the table straddling can increase your win rate imo, definitely can be used at your own discretion, but in a vacuum you are losing far less directly than most people realize, some of the big blinds money is being funneled to you + you get an option
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Old 02-07-2019, 02:19 PM   #40
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Re: Why straddle?

Another factor is - if we raise after straddling many players have a nagging suspicion we are attempting to steal whatever limps there are... which means they will call wider.

This makes any good hands we wake up with worth more.
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Old 02-07-2019, 05:29 PM   #41
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Re: Why straddle?

The most important part of this is IMO is the social dynamic. If you have a table full of rec players that want to straddle, don't kill the mood by refusing to. If you're at a table with grinders itching to play for higher stakes, table change obviously, but while there stick up for the one fish that doesn't want to bump up the blinds. If you're playing below 5/10, you'll be in the first scenario much more often. I'll add that the folks whom I actually pay for poker advice advocate UTG straddling for reasons mentioned above.
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Old 02-08-2019, 12:44 AM   #42
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Re: Why straddle?

I don't start the straddles, but I will straddle if everyone seems to want to do it. It's 1bb and no-one likes the grumpy nit who kills the vibe.

I turn up with a backpack and play tight so I try to actively avoid the other clichés like headphones, treating 2/3 cash like it's the WSOP and never straddling.

Last edited by WereBeer; 02-08-2019 at 12:53 AM.
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Old 02-08-2019, 01:03 AM   #43
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Re: Why straddle?

Yes typically the people against straddles are just ****ty nit regs. Never see the winners against straddling. Just the fish who need to scrape together every tiny winrate to play breakeven.
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Old 02-08-2019, 02:32 AM   #44
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Re: Why straddle?

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Yes typically the people against straddles are just ****ty nit regs. Never see the winners against straddling. Just the fish who need to scrape together every tiny winrate to play breakeven.
I don't know man. I am one of the laggiest players you will ever see and I HATE straddling UTG, and think that the players who do it routinely are morons. Even in a limit game where you can add a round of betting preflop and induce some gargantuan pots.

Straddling on the button is completely different.

I would rather kick up the blinds, play with a rock, or do bomb pots than have everyone at the table do a round of UTG straddles.
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:24 AM   #45
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Re: Why straddle?

Agree utg is worse
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Old 02-08-2019, 03:37 AM   #46
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Re: Why straddle?

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Originally Posted by PFunkaliscious View Post
I don't know man. I am one of the laggiest players you will ever see and I HATE straddling UTG, and think that the players who do it routinely are morons. Even in a limit game where you can add a round of betting preflop and induce some gargantuan pots.
The real ancillary benefit of straddling is not inducing others to straddle but it's to create a gambley atmosphere which is often lacking in games today. Poker used to be a gambling game but not so much anymore, and this is why the button straddle is so bad for the game, not because it makes the blinds play super tight but because it makes people think more strategically and about position and thus advantage; all the opposite of gambling.
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Old 02-08-2019, 06:02 AM   #47
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Re: Why straddle?

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Originally Posted by PFunkaliscious View Post
I would rather kick up the blinds, play with a rock, or do bomb pots than have everyone at the table do a round of UTG straddles.
A round of UTG straddles is near-identical to kicking the blinds up.

UTG straddles aren't as bad as they look because they buy you preflop position and increase the stakes. Don't get me wrong, they are still easily -EV in isolation, but if your straddle induces other people to start straddling, or loosens the game up a bit, it can be worth it.

My room allows multiple live straddles in positional order around the table, with each straddle doubling in size. I have seen people straddle for $32 in 1/2 games before.
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Old 02-09-2019, 01:31 PM   #48
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Re: Why straddle?

so i straddled every orbit last session and lost $485 on my straddle, a couple of the other players started straddling as well and I ended up picking up KK vs the straddle who ended up with QQ and I stacked him for 220BBs, ended up +760 for the session

notable straddle hand:

UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, MP raises to 40, BTN calls, hero wakes up with the mighty 24 and calls, limpers call

flop K55 and it checks around

turn Q

hero bets 100, folds to MP who calls, BTN folds

river 4

Hero 275, BTN tank calls with AQ

most of the losses were right there, had a lot of junk and had to fold a lot but squeezed a little bit of juice out of some other hands so most of the losses were here, can't play too conservative if you straddle tho
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Old 02-09-2019, 04:52 PM   #49
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Re: Why straddle?

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Originally Posted by KT_Purple View Post
so i straddled every orbit last session and lost $485 on my straddle, a couple of the other players started straddling as well and I ended up picking up KK vs the straddle who ended up with QQ and I stacked him for 220BBs, ended up +760 for the session

notable straddle hand:

UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, MP raises to 40, BTN calls, hero wakes up with the mighty 24 and calls, limpers call

flop K55 and it checks around

turn Q

hero bets 100, folds to MP who calls, BTN folds

river 4

Hero 275, BTN tank calls with AQ

most of the losses were right there, had a lot of junk and had to fold a lot but squeezed a little bit of juice out of some other hands so most of the losses were here, can't play too conservative if you straddle tho
Thicc sample size.

Bluffing a horrible turn OOP into a wide field, not good. Realizing you can't win at showdown, fantastic.

Seriously though, playing a UTG straddle shouldn't be any different than playing big blind. Not going broke in a limped pot still applies.
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