Background Info: The room does not rake the pot, pay a $25 fee for the day to play. Game is "$1/2 NL, with a $5 BB ante" can match the biggest stack up to 75%. Optional straddle of $5. Games often end up with average stacks of $1,200+

Hero: 30 yr old white guy, most likely seen as a LAG winning reg. Won a 200 person tournament in this room at the beginning of the year for $6,000 and several $1k winning and losing cash game sessions this year. playing $1,600

Straddle: 1st time I have played against him, but two of the local pro's seem to know him well and talk to him like he is a peer, not like a fish or a bad reg. Seems to be a winning TAG player. Have seen him 3b a few times preflop in a couple of hours. Late 20's Early 30's white guy, playing $1,400

UTG (first to act after straddle): Dealer/Floor person in the room, not working today just here to play. Very bad player, opens way to wide, calls 3b way to wide, huge timing tells where fast bets are strength, delayed bets are bluffs or weak. Late 30's mid 40's black female. Usually buys in for $200 - $300 at a time and will bust 3-4 times. today she managed to flop 3 sets in a row, get full doubles or stacks each time and has about $2,200 currently

OTTH: 9 handed, 2 players walking. So 7 handed

Hero ($1,600) - 73dd in SB

UTG: opens $15 (standard open size in this game is $15-$20, the better players tend to open to $20).

Folds to Hero in SB, BB looks like he is gonna fold, straddle looks mildly interested.

At these stack depths, and with the Ante Hero decided to call. I can definitely fold the SB most of the time without thought. YES I KNOW....but I didn't this time haha. Also a 1k high hand bonus running, so like...sue me

BB Folds and Straddle calls without much thought.

Flop $52: Qd Jd 3c (pair and flush draw.)

Hero check's, planning on either check/raising or check/calling depending on the action and bet sizing.

Check, Check by straddle and UTG

Turn $52: Qd Jd 3c 8d (Hero now has flush)

Hero checks, planning on check raising for value

Straddle bets $40 (roughly $1,400 stack)
UTG quickly folds
Hero raises $125
Straddle takes his time and tanks a minute or so, then raises to $300.

I thought about what he could could have here. I get the vibe that this type of player would 3B a suited Ace preflop. I did not give him credit for the straight flush in the moment, but definitely could have it as played. I didn't think he would 3b anything but the nut flush or nut blocker here. Not even K high flush.

If I flat here, I expect him to jam with both the nut flush and the nut blocker only. If he has a hand like T9o with a diamond, I expect him to check back.

I decided to 4b to $600 to make him pay extra to realize his equity if semi-bluffing. I also expected him to jam if he did have the nuts and if he 5b jams here then I planned on folding.

What do you think about my thought process here?

Seems like a good example of why not to call in the first place.
As for 4!ing this OTT, I really hate it.

Why do you hate a 4b here?

i dislike the 4bet too.

firstly, 3bets in low stakes are kind of unbalanced, mostly skewed towards value/nutted hands.

secondly your hand is borderline weak against V 3bet range, 4betting to make V pay for semi bluffing or to know if you're truly beat and thus can fold easily is too costly. If i want to 4bet to know if im truly beaten, i want to be holding a hand like, for example a 10 high flush which is a rather strong hand but not strong enough(3rd nuts). 73dd is the 5th nuts i think. given how nutted V 3bet is, holding 5th nuts isn't that strong.

thirdly relative to your stack, you havent committed much yet. i would get away while i can instead of digging a deeper hole.

If he's playing a solid, TAG game i think its a fold here(am i a nit for thinking this way?), but if he has shown signs of maniac-ness before then of course not folding.

i hope what i said regarding a 4bet makes sense here....let me know what yall think.

Lastly when playing deepstack stay away from RIO hands like this, you want to be drawing to the nuts to cooler your opponents. Playing weak drawy hands will get you into situations exactly like this

My impression of V is that he is a winning semi-pro, maybe an outright pro, that I read as more balanced then your average rec player. What do you think V's 3b range is here?

You put yourself in a bad spot and didn't have to. By 4 betting the turn you are basically getting better hands to call and worse hands to fold. Calling the 3bet and check calling the river at least gives your opponent the chance to bluff at the pot on the river.

Is this a 4bet for value or a bluff? The 7 high flush is not that strong with the Ace and King draws still out there.

I 4b for value, as I didn't think he would 3b Amy flushes here except for the nut flush. I didn't think he would have the nut flush here because I thought this type of player would be 3b preflop with a lot of his suited AXdd hands

If he did have the Nut flush and I flatted the 3b. I expect him to bet either $500 or jam. My expectation was the same if he just had the nut blocker, weighted heavier towards a jam.

My thought by 4b was that I'd get value fr AXdd draws and a straight. I also thought that by 4b he would 5b jam the nut flush nearly Everytime, expecting me to be committed and call. In the moment, it felt like me paying an extra $300 to find out if he had the nuts or not.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

This is what im referring to when i said i dislike your 4bet. paying even more money to know if he has the nut flush is too costly and not worth it when you're holding 5th nuts.

what i mean is that you'll want to do such a move only when you're holding 2nd/3rd nuts. With 5th nuts, just let it go, the price is too much.

okay, i'll probably add in one or two combo draws. But that makes the decision even murkier.

With a slightly more balanced range, im not really sure what i'll do........

I don't really see why he can't jam the naked ace of diamonds, in which case you're in the exact same situation as you would've been on the river having just flatted and checked.

You should do something else earlier in this pot to avoid being in this debacle. Fold preflop, just check/call the turn bet, maybe bet/call turn, it doesn't really matter, the point at which we've gone from $52 in there to $652 without the nuts, out of position, and with another ~$1100 to play is not good.

Look at it like this: At the start of the turn on this board, each of the three of you writes a number on a piece of paper saying how much money you want to play for over the next two streets, and if two of you write a non-zero number, you're all-in for the lower of the two numbers. How much do you write down and why? And keep in mind, this toy game is immensely better for you than the actual scenario at hand, because it means you're done playing OOP.

Fold pre. X-r flop sounds good. Lead turn for $40. 4 betting the turn is interesting because it's a pure bluff, but I don't think I wanna use a flush as a bluff. I think I just fold here.

EDIT: I also agree with x-c turn

only street you played correctly is the flop.

if you're prone to spazzing out like this, don't play this deep.

V calls $600.

River: brick

Hero checks to induce bluff
V checks

Hero wins

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

Of course hero won, this thread exists.
If you just called on the turn, you likely win a bigger pot by letting V spaz out on the river with the Ad.

You can check my history of posting threads, I post hands that I win and hands that I lose.

I was more questioning the logic of my thought process here to see if it made sense. I wanted to see what you all ranged V on with his 3 bet. Obviously I know it's an nonstandard risk to 4 bet with only the 7 high flush, but I felt that it would help me narrow his hand range in this spot. I thought he definitely had the Ad in his hand, thought if I 4bet he would flat the with the flush draw and raise if he had already made the nut flush.

Whereas if I called the 3b and faced a river shove, it wouldn't necessarily help me figure out whether it's the Nut Flush or just the nut blocker.

This isn't a line that I would regularly take against most players. Maybe it's too creative, certainly a possibility. Either way, probably won't be in this exact spot for a long time again.

He could 5b the naked Ad, but he'd still have to fear 9Tdd to a certain degree to pull off that bluff. I just felt, based on my read, that he would only 5b a made hand here, never bluff.

If he pulled the trigger on the 5b bluff, I'd give him lots of credit for having big balls as not many players are willing to 5b bluff/semi-bluff on the turn or river.

Check-calling turn, I don't think is reasonable with my hand strength here, lots of hands can be bet/calling his spot that are behind mine. Folding to his 3b is certainly an option, as is calling. I certainly understand the logic behind those options and would take those lines a certain percentage of the time. It's definitely not a clear 4b everytimein my spot.

True enough. I know you post winning and losing hands.
From all the best instructors that I’ve ever learned from there are two reasons for betting at any point.

1. For value
2. As a bluff

Weird hand though. Glad you won. V was probably really confused on the turn and at showdown.

Yea I guess the best way to describe my 4 bet on the turn was a combination of value betting the turn and block betting the river in 1 play. I'd play this hand in a different matter on the turn if I had to replay it, probably leading turn instead of check-raising.

Even after knowing you won the hand, i still dont like the 4bet tho. i disagree the 4bet is for value, as i feel the 4bet creates a very expensive WA/WB scenario, where only better hands would call that 4bet. Usually no weaker hands would call and thus you won't be getting value.

You got the right read on V about him holding a Ad flush draw. And he happened to be a little stationy this time. He should actually fold his flush draw to your 4bet, as he wasnt getting the right odds to call. And if he wasnt holding the Ad, he should also be folding to a 4bet

Ya, I don’t even hate the turn lead, but the 4! is FPS imo.
You gain way more by allowing him to spazz out OTR if he thinks he can get you to fold with a huge river barrel.

I don't think I gain any information by flatting the 3 bet. I think he's shoving the river with both the nut flush and the bricked nut flush draw. Lack of clarity is a big reason why I 4b here.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using Tapatalk

(Gaining information by raising isn’t a reason to raise. No offence, but that’s fish logic.)

what information do you think you gain by 4!?

that you're drawing dead some high % of the time?

just accept that you massively overplayed your hand, you got lucky and won, and move on with your life.

it happens.

the other day i raised a PF 3! OTF with 2 overs/BDFD/BDSD. he shipped i called and i went runner runner to his AA. i overplayed, got lucky and won. i didn't make a thread to find out that i either (1) played the hand great or (2) argue that i played the hand great with anyone who disagreed, which is what you've done here.

This 4b is a disaster. I don’t get why he can bluff the first time but not the second given he still blocks nuts. Raising to “find out where you’re at” is not a valid reason

this spot is really close though.

V only needs about 19% equity to call and if he has the AdXx, he has 16% equity. couple that with who the hell is going to 4! OTT and fold OTR if a diamond comes? OP probably says he would, but i have my doubts