I play 1/2 live games in Philly region. These games typically have 3-4 loose preflop callers who call 12-15 dollar raise preflop. This creates certain problem with TPTK hands. Lets say you get AKs UTG. Effective stacks are $200. You raise to 15 and 3 more people call behind you. The preflop pot is not $60.00. There are two possibilities:
1) You miss the flop(will happen 70% of time). Now you have a big pot on flop and you have missed it with 2-3 players behind you.
2) You flop TPTK. You still have only TPTK and the callers could have you beat already. Remember 2-3 opponents have more equity combined together against TPTK.

Chances are that your hand by the time it goes to river will be beat and you will end up losing big portion of stack. The opportunity costs are huge here. You will be losing $15 70% of time and you will be losing another 50-100 bucks when you do flop TPTK. And when you do win with TPTK you tend to win small pots. Aren't we better off calling with AKs and then building the pot only when we hit big with it? These TPTK type hands have huge opportunity costs at 1/2 live games. I am seeing I am better off set mining and stacking off loose players than trying to outplay them.

What are your thoughts? Agree/Diasgree? I would appreciate opinions.

You are allowed to raise to a bigger size preflop

The probability of flopping a hand better than TPTK is way, way, way worse than 1/3. Even if they flop 2 pair, you still have either 3 or 6 redraw outs. If your SPR is 3 and you always get it in when you flop TPTK you will profit.

True. I am noticing certain threshold at 1/2. $12 or $15 seems to be that threshold. If you raise above it everyone folds and you win measely 3 bucks from blinds. Raise 12 or 15 you get 3-4 callers. Most of these loose callers have irrational threshold that they don't cross. So by raising big you actually will make them fold. That is part of the problem. I rarely get play heads up where i am playing. Either, I end with 3-4 callers or none. Not only that these loose callers will also snap call your flop bet. Thus, you now have to shove on turn with way ahead and way behind hand. Not a good spot to be in. Should be not rather wait to set mine or flop connectors with these loose callers? These players have no issues calling big turn/river bets.

AK is a good hand, but it isn't a monster pf. Even 22 is ahead of it. At the same time, it is ahead of any other non-pair and isn't much of an underdog against anything other than AA or KK. Part of the trick of playing it is that you do have to understand how your villains are going to react post flop. Are they fit or fold? Do they hang around just for the flop, but fold the turn without TP. Or do they consider bottom pair a bluff catcher? Know this and you'll make more money with AK.

At the same time, I wouldn't sniff about winning $3 in a hand at 1/2. If I could win 1.5 BB every hand I played, I'd be plenty happy with my results.

Try this:

Raise to $20. A nice 10% of your stack, which should make postflop play easy. Initially, everyone will fold. That is fine, $3 is still better than limping hoping to hit a monster with AQ. And the next time you raise, make it $20 again.

Most people will fold, you might get one caller.

And raise $20 the next time. You will start to get one or two callers. You might start getting too many callers, and have to raise more.

***

This phenomena was first mentioned, I believe, by DgiHarris (read his posts before any game theory), and its simple really:

Yes, $12-$15 is that threshold set because everyone has agreed to it. Once you set a new threshold, everyone will be accustomed to that after the initial shock. It's quite interesting, actually. I went the other direction, as an experiment, and promptly ruined a great game by making $6 raises preflop. Before long, everyone else was doing it also.

These 1-2 games are curious beasts, but considering how fishy, passive and groupthinky they are, it does not take much to lead them.

Remember that scene in Star Wars? About how the Jedi could bend the will of weak minds?

$20. Bring a friend.

Same thing.

Raise bigger pre. If you have ak/AQ and everyone folds you just take it and move on. You will get people calling if you raise this size consistently.

If you lose a 4 way pot where you contributed 1/4 of the money then who cares? Your hand has more opportunity to win than their junk hands. When you flop TPTK play it cautiously. Missing a little value in a multi way pot with a good-not-great hand isn't as bad as opening yourself up to losing a lot of $. Consider check/calling flop oop when you hit, let's your opponents reveal their hand strength, and when you hit ak there are rarely turn cards that are scary to you, but it depends on the board.

You're being pessimistic with your numbers IMO. You ought to be winning some medium to big pots pretty often for the 30% of times you flop an A or K.

E.g. Kxx flop, you bet half pot and get one call. That leaves about 120 in pot and 120 behind and you're headsup on the turn. I feel like that's a good situation, no?

If you aren't getting called by worse hands here pretty often, then this doesn't seem like a typical 1/2 kinda game. But OK, if opponents are reading your PFR as TT+ or AK/AQ then they might be able to play fairly correctly by not paying off on an Axx flop when they have A5o type hands. I'd still be shocked if you can't get paid off on Kxx flops though. I'm mean just tell us upfront you're a nut peddling nit if that's the case.

Anyway, as one adjustment you could get a little looser with Ax raises here. Where your raising only AK/AQ you could expand to AJ and ATs+, of something like that. Also raise more suited broadway to get away from opponents associating your raises only with AQ+ and TT+. You know, "balance".

And also, I guess many here may hate this, but I think it's fine to limp and flat with AK if raising it helps opponents play more correctly against you. You're starting out with a smaller pot on the flop and you're basically never looking to stack someone, but AK often plays pretty easy when you limp in.

Conversely, look to just shove all-in pre-flop with this hand on occasion. The ideal would probably be if you are in BB and a bunch of loose players limp in. That's almost always a strongly +EV play, with the caveat of watching out for a tight limp hidden in there somewhere. And also, watch out for big stacks there because if they call you're in a world of hurt. But really if you are in BB this is pretty fine as long as a limped AA is unlikely, especially from a bigger stack.

"Remember 2-3 opponents have more equity combined together against TPTK."

I don't know what scenario you are thinking of where there will be 3 callers post-flop when on a king high flop, where you have less equity, unless 1 V has flopped 2 pair or a set. Or, 1 V flopped 2 pair.

Odds of flopping a set are 8.2:1 I believe. The 7.5:1 includes those times the Flop comes KKK, or AAA for a Boat for the Vs holding a pocket pair. When it comes 777 [or 3 of any rank] vs. your V with 88 [or any pair other than KK+] you still have ~29.5% equity.

It could also come KK8 giving the V with 88 a boat & you have 5 outs to K's full or quads, not to mention runner, runner any rank for a bigger boat. So you still have ~23% equity.

Odds of your V flopping two pair are 48.x:1. Of course multiple Vs reduces that. To what I don't know.

If you have 3 callers vs. your AKs, and you assume they 3! with QQ+; AKs, you have a money overlay. You may have less equity than the total of the other 3, however, you're going to find it hard to come up with a scenario where your equity is less than the 25% of the money you're putting in the pot.

Even vs. 2 Vs, you still have more equity than the 33% of the money you put in the pot.

I subscribe to venice10's thinking: 1.5BBs per hand, every time with no big PP, is sweet! $3 * 100 = $300.00. One buy-in in a 1/2 game.

So, I am not resigning myself to being up against 3-4 players & o/r $15. I am raising more. Imagine what happens when they don't adjust & you start o/r UTG+2/3 [after 2/3 folds] to $18 with JTs.

I do not play AQo UTG - UTG+2.

DISCLAIMER: My win rate is less than 10BBs per hour over my last 2500 hours, therefore, I am not a Crusher at 1/2 & 1/3NL. Probably because I o/r UTG in certain situations with 98s.

Holy nits, batman

So you raise to 12 UTG at 1-2 (already a 6x) w/ 200 eff with AK and miss. So check fold. No big deal.

What do you wanna do, start limping it and check fold when you miss? You raise for value. Sometimes you make a value bet and don't get to have a value hand on a later street. It happens.

You forget the times you do hit, you have a trivial bet - bet - shove with your AK on K63 or AT2 or what have you. And it's really hard to beat top top when you play 40% of hands. You think the dude who flats EP opens with A9o is doing a lot of folding when he makes his top pair?

Grunch from title alone: For pure fat value, baby. Every time more money goes in when you are ahead, you win. You are almost always ahead PF with these hands, so get money in the middle.

Now a million players called and the flop is A83r. No one who is stupid enough to call your raise with a crappy ace is good enough to lay down TP, even a crappy TP, so value-town them to death. Occasionally, that will be A3s and you will value cut yourself. C'est la variance.

OTOH, sometime (often) the flop comes JT2ss. You are no longer ahead of their ranges. Stop putting money in. That doesn't mean that it was a mistake pre, just that the situation has changed.

Jonathan Little wrote about this in his recent book about 1/2 NL. I adapted his strategy about 6 months ago. My win rate has been higher in that time but it is too small a sample to determine effectiveness as of yet.

The concept is that we print money in 1/2 by exploiting our opponents mistakes. From UTG, Hero should raise to $6 with AK and all raising UTG hands with a 100BB stack and adjust up when deeper effectively. This will allow Hero to play post flop without a bloated pot and may entice regs and fish alike to 3bet with dominated holdings. This puts Hero at a huge advantage.

Since I have implemented this strategy, I have gotten 100 bb stacks in pre flop vs AQ, AJ, AT, KQs, KJs quite a bit. Compared to back when I raised larger as most are advising, this almost never happened.

This is ridiculous, by the way. I am sorry to hear that an author has put it in his book. If you are gonna play your AK/AQ as an implied odds hand, save yourself the 4 bucks and just limp (and watch your winrate increase by the 4 bucks you save!!!), don't cut your implieds yourself.

lol at suggesting limping AK utg as being better than making a normal 3x raise.

Even if you miss the flop, you still might see the turn and river and hit your hand on a later street when everyone checks. You also dominate many weaker hands that opponents will play. You can win plenty of large pots with AK when players play hands like AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, or even any ace. For example, and ace flops and you bet your AK, and get called down all the way by someone with A9 and double up. There is also a small chance you make a hand better than top pair.

You're underestimating how good your hand is IMO.


If 3-4 people called you PF then you will not be winning small pots.

I may try what you suggested here. I am noticing this group think also. Thanks for your response.


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Is this thread some sort of level? Why we raise with AQ/AK in low stakes games? Maybe because our opponents will put in money with all sort of worse hands?

grunch: you'll print $ when you flop top pair and they can't fold a worse top pair. it's okay to c/f flops when it's super multi way and a low SPR. trust me, if the games are as loose as you say, they're not folding KJ versus your AK on a K-high flop.

fwiw there are times where flatting pre IP with a hand like AK and AQ can be ideal. your best bet is to post specific hands and get guidance from other posters.

I think that Buster is implying that a 3x o/r in EP is not going to get many folds from 75s etc. type hands. Therefore, you are basically playing BINGO & hoping to hit the Flop hard with your AKo vs. 5-7 players.

I usually open to $6 [$10 in 1/3NL] with small/medium pairs & medium SCs vs. Vs with $400 stacks in a soft game & usually end up with 4-6 callers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't AKo hands looking for 2 Vs max?

If you want to narrow down the number of Vs you're up against going into the Flop, where I play, it's going to have to be $15 for 1/2NL & $18 in 1/3NL. That's the minimum. Let the alcohol flow & it's more. Same thing for when it's a full moon.

Yes, and more
3 villains combined usually have like over 15 outs at the minimum to beat your TP. You are ahead on the flop against them individually but still got to dodge 15 outs or even more. This is like one dude would have OESFD for 15 outs. And this is not an exaggeration. Let's say
#1 got OESD for 8 outs
#2 got a middle pair with 2 outs for a set OTT
#3 got a draw + pair for at least 8 outs

the entire horde has got 18 outs while you still have the best hand OTF but you got to dodge to survive 18 cards. That's why one pair hands are losers in multi-way pots. You got to raise more so to isolate one or two villains. Two is the best for AK. I'm not going in details now why two is the ideal number of opponents but 2 villains it is for sure. (when you lose you lose 1 bet and when you win you get 2 bets) and TPTK can hold its own weight vs. 2 opponents. AK makes the most $$ vs. 2 dudes.

With a $200 max buy in, sizing down your opens pre flop makes a lot of sense. It allows you substantially more room to maneuver; make some light 3-bets and/or apply more pressure post flop.

Yes, that's a good play. 3! light will definitely chase away 1-2 monkeys from the horde of tormenting monkeys. A5s, T9s, 98s, 56s plus all your normal range for 2! from EP and MP all those hands mixed up at random be included makes a good 3! normal or light. Or make it A6s, T9s, 98s and 56s only black or only red, that will cut the numbers in 1/2 and will be random for sure. You can use this thing for other hands when create randoms so no opponent alive today in the universe can figure you out what the hell you are doing 3! with. (LOL ..), When they try to put you on a range they will be in big error. It will be impossible to figure out that s***

Even more,
If you 2! with AK and get 3-4 villains making a volume pot, what you do is make also 2! with all your speculative hands because you'll be playing that hand in volume. So, make 2! with 22+, A2s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs+, AK/AQ all of them make a universal 2!. If they want to play.., OK.., You want to play? .., let's play goddamned volume pots with hands that flop near nuts. Plus you sprinkle between your 3! light ... haha

Thanks. Pretty much covers it, except...

Raising to 3x doesn't accomplish any of the reasons why we raise, except the one Mr. Little is pointing out, it disguises the strength of our hand, which limping also does, except at a cheaper price....

Just because you missed a flop doesn't mean you just give up on a hand. There are dry boards where just your two overs can be a hand worth staying in with. Also, your title is a bit deceiving. UTG it might not always be worth it, but in most positions it is.

I think we should ask why raise at all then. Why would we raise AA or KK if we know we'll get a bunch of callers and assume 1p hands are weak..? Abstaining from raising with KK+ sounds wrong, doesn't it? It should, because there's too much value in top pair OTF. Sure, AQ+ needs to connect, which is why these hands aren't as profitable, but they connect at the same rate as the field, except stronger. Our pairs and two-pairs outrank their pairs & 2p. Furthermore, it's much easier to semibluff AQ+ vs pocket-pairs, which are simpler to push off the best hand as these are basically there to setmine & fear a showdown w/out connecting. Also, AK specifically is a great hand to 4bet with against certain villains. We block KK+ and lots of weaker players will not continue to a 4bet w/out those.

Overall, I'd be a leak if we're not showing profit with AQ+, so if it shows profit, why not max out by building that pot up pre flop.?