BTW the great thing about small stakes is that people will call you a nit but still give great action, especially if you can develop the people skills to seem like you're having fun with everyone else. (From the above, could that be a good skill set to work on?)

If they do adjust then the countadjustment is obvious: Semibluff more, vbet slightly less thinly. Show down your BD flush that outdrew their slowplayed set after you double barreled and see how your image changes!

It really doesn't matter what they call you. But taking it good naturedly ("Yeah, I folded black aces preflop the other day because I knew the other guy had aces and the diamond flush was coming. I might be a little nitty.") is ++++EV.

People pay off opponents they enjoy playing with.

"You know what they say. A pro is someone who loses their day job. But seriously, I'm just hanging out here for company while I look for work." It's true (and has networking value) for me but you can come up with whatever.

Or, "If so, I'm in trouble. I dumped three dimes in the 2-5 at the Wynn the other day!"

Or, "You obviously didn't see that hand an hour ago where I went bonkers and caught my backdoor quads."

Accused of being a huge fish >>>>>> ...of being a nit >>>>> ...of being a pro. I don't want people to think I'm good at poker.

I'm stealing those lines man!!!

This post has me laughing so hard. Such animosity toward nits.

I don't mind doing red or black for $10. It's 0 EV and is very low variance since the average pot even at 1/2 is way more than $10. I do mind doing flips though since it's -EV and there's an opportunity cost of not being able to play actual poker which is +EV.

I think the trick is to be social like people ITT are saying. Yes sometimes I'll be card dead, bored and on my phone for an hour straight especially if the table is boring but I never wear headphones and I'm always open to a good conversation.

It's hard to deny when I play one room and am there 30 to 40 hours a week always with 1k+ chips, usually 2k+ a few hours in. The regs all know me including the regfish. Sometimes they say something to another reg like "watch out for this guy" or I sit down and they're like "oh no not this guy" usually kind of half-joking but I know they probably would rather someone else joined the table.

I usually just laugh at any comment about me being good/scary/pro/etc. and say something like "nah man I'm just running crazy good!" Or "I've rebought twice so I'm actually stuck." Various other lies. The guy who commented usually doesn't buy it but I'm more concerned about the people he's telling. Sometimes I'll say "what? This guy's the best player in the room. Saying I'm good..."

In spots where Im clearly not going to convince anyone I just don't say anything and hope nobody else heard it. Suddenly talking loudly about random crap like a movie you saw is also good.

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As for OP's question...I know this thread got necro'd but I'll try to answer it.

First to me a nit is an extremely tight player who raises something like JJ+ AK or even tighter, 3-bets only KK+, always with some ridiculous 2xish sizing, limps hands like KQs and bets postflop in basically two spots

1) The nit is the aggressor and flopped TPTK+

2) The nit is not the aggressor and hit 2p+

If the nit raises you on a non flush board he has trips+. If he raises you on an unpaired flush board he has a flush. If he raises you on a paired flush board he has a boat.

And nits never bluff. They also tend to do lots of really transparent moves like limp/reraise AA or minraise you OTR with the nuts.

And some nits do really annoying things like x/c x/c x/c with a set. They get min value it's just tilting seeing people playing strong hands so passively. You think your 2p is good and bam they flip over second set.

Lot of older nits (OMCs) will slowroll you constantly. It's often unintentional as they just act super slow but it's very annoying for me to bet the river with a Q high flush, nit calls, I flip, then I watch for 10 seconds as he stares at the board and his cards before finally turning over a K high flush.

Also lot of nits are as Petrucci described. Basically life nits. Often curmudgeonly, gruff, or outright rude to dealers and waitresses, as well as other players when their aces get cracked. They'll do nothing to accommodate you or any other player.

I dislike these uber nits because they're often unfriendly table killers. There are a few notorious old nits in my room and if more than one (sometimes one) sits at your table, that table is breaking within 30 minutes because nobody wants to play with them.

They don't win much money playing poker.
They don't appear to be enjoying themselves.
They are basically just a financial and energy drain at whatever table they sit down at. It's not really clear to me why these guys even play poker. If they don't enjoy gambling or socializing and don't really make any money why are they in the poker room 30 hours a week? Boredom? Need to get away from their wife?

I would much rather have certain pros join my table than nits, even though the pros win far more, because most of the pros are friendly and help stimulate table action. There is some overall utility to their presence at the table even if you don't want to be mixing it up with them heads up too much. Like I know one very LAGGY pro, and I hate having him on my left as he 3-bets me a ton and forces me to light 4-bet him etc., but he's really friendly, he will often have a beer, and at most tables he joins the conversation and energy instantly go up. The fish like him. And he builds big pots. I would much rather have this guy at my table than one of the uber nits.

My playstyle is TAG bordering on sLAG. Average something like 23/18. At 1/2 I got called a nit a lot but not at 2/5. People know I'm not afraid to put in money, raise a wide variety of hands, make big bluffs, or make big calls with fairly weak hands if the situation calls for it. I try to be friendly. I build pots. I don't know if the recs like me but they at least tolerate me and I always congratulate them when they win a hand against me. I know they'd rather have me there than an uber nit. I'm not great at getting quiet tables talking but working on it as I know it's important.

Really if you play on the nitty side of TAG it's fine and I don't think people will dislike you for it as long as you're friendly and don't act like a giant negative energy vortex. In the end play how you want, but if your playstyle irritates fish you'll have to come up with other ways to keep them happy like being a good conversationalist. If you're friendly enough nobody is going to care if you haven't played a hand in an hour. But if someone does comment on it you can just say something like "oh I'm not very good at poker I just like being here to socialize" and if you're actually socializing they'll let it go and you can go on nitting it up without upsetting anybody.

23/18 is not TAG. That's definitely well into LAG territory. Back in my online poker days at my loosest I was 20/16 and I was opening like 35% in the CO and 70% on the BTN.

Anyways I wanted to add one point about nits. I know a lot of you guys hate them cause it's hard to stack them, they always have it when they're in a hand vs you, etc. But when you have nits on your left, it's the best thing ever. It's like a wall protecting you from 3 bets and allowing you to LAG it up. When I have two or three nits on my left giving off the classic "I'm ready to muck my hand preflop" tell, I can usually play the CO, HJ and even MP as if I have the BTN. That means I get to open 45% in MP! That's huge! The best part is, until I get caught opening T6s in MP, having it go to showdown and a few people start murmuring, they won't adjust.

I try to be as social as possible at the table--no headphones, no shades--but honestly, i pick up so much information just by listening and hearing things during hands it really helps me. I first liked 5 guys I played with, then 10, and now there's probably 50 dudes I know that I look forward to seeing and it does liven up the table and remove the negative vortex effect.

Very on point by Shai, feel like he is conviniently elaborating uppon my own post little more. Great points about wanting a seasoned livepro in some instances instead of a true nit. Shows how toxic some of these guys is for the table mood/environment and the total EV of the table.

And no: its not because these nits are ubertight, hard to stack or doesent play a certain style. Its the toxic negative energy that surrounds them wich is the real problem as described in several posts this thread.

Also nice work and nice approach Chicago, keep it up.

Like the diamond nits at Caesar's who are on their tablets/headphones and never talk or smile? Yeah those guys are toxic AF. I hate them. I actually really hate them. But I do love having them on my left. Also that feeling when you crack their aces, stack them for 300 bbs and the whole table looks at you like you're a hero while they angrily storm off cause no one likes them...

Omg, dont remind me of the worst Ceasar promotion/diamond nits. Freaking worst ever, even in regfilled Vegas. Gets me tilted just thinking about it! When they are launching up Netflix on their tablets getting ready to watch tv series or has this extra equipment for their smartphones to make them stand vertically so they can watch movies on them on the rail, like omg. Some of the Venetian nits is also some of the worst ever, bringing their laptop to the table rigging themself with huge headphones and watching whole movies at the table while waiting for the nutz. And some players still wonders why there is less and less fish at the pokertables, and why more and more fish prefer gambling in the pits instead.

But yeah, agree on everything here Felting these guys is the best feeling ever, especially like you said when you can feel "everbody" at the table is high fiving you in their head as a superhero.

+1. Sounds exactly like my weekday daytime games. I love having 3 nits on my left. I steal money all day long. Winning 2-3 $7-$12 pots every hour uncontested adds up.

Okay, then I'm a sLAG or I'm calculating it wrong. We just count PFR when we have the opportunity to be the first to raise, correct? Like someone raises in front of us and we fold we just ignore that hand for PFR stat, right? It would obviously be used for 3-bet. And VPIP is PFR + limp right?

Assuming this is correct...I open about

UTG 9.35%
UTG+1 10.3%
MP 14.5%
LJ 19.8%
HJ 24.6%
CO 31.5%
BTN 44.5%
SB - raise 9.05%, complete 65.6%
BB - raise 7.99%

So PFR would be these summed divided by 9 which is 19. In reality my PFR may be more like 17 because of overlimps but I don't open limp anything.

And VPIP would be 22.08 outside the blinds, figuring it gets limped to me in the SB about 1/3 times I add 65.6/3 + 9.05*2/3 which is 27.90, then take a weighted average: (22.08*7 + 27.90)/8 = 22.81

So... 23/18 seems close.

Am I calculating this wrong or I'm a sLAG? Anyway it's funny because I'm still usually one of the tightest players at the table. Most guys are VPIPing 30 to 50 percent. And I play very tight against raises so I'm not entering 23% of hands or even close.

Your stated reasons for hating nits is not at all why I dislike them. They rarely ]win much off me because they're so absurdly transparent in their playstyle. They're hard to stack but who cares. They're mostly just grumpy old dudes who sit there frowning listening to music not saying a word. Nobody wants to play with people like that. They'd rather lose money to me because at least I give action.

I disagree having nits on your left is that great an advantage, at least where I play. They rake preflop here (no flop, we drop 2 + 10% anyway suckers) and there is very little light 3 betting going on. Most guys don't even 3 bet TT or AQs and JJ/QQ/AK are definite "maybes". There is however a ton of preflop limping so I'm iso-raising people a lot. A common hand is like 3 limps I raise from CO 1 or 2 guys (sometimes 5 or 6) call. Pretty rare everyone just folds and even if they do I don't win much because of drop and rake. Doesn't really matter much where the nits are. If they call you preflop they likely have a pocket pair and are folding if they missed their set.

I am far far more concerned having big fish on my right as well as good LAGs. After that I'm still more concerned with short stacks and very deep stacks being on my right. Having nits on my left is like dead last consideration in seat selection. Because they're basically empty chairs. As long as I still have position on the people who play lots of hands or who can make my life hell playing aggro short stacking, I don't much care where the nits are. Plus if they're on my left I have to sit by them and therefore I'm probably talking less and look nitty by association.

But yeah I guess in an aggressive game with no preflop rake having nits on left is good, though I'm still way more concerned about having position on whales and other good aggressive players.

VPIP isnt PFR + limp. You have to also add in hands you call a raise with.

How in the world do you know your exact raise % down to the hundredth of a percentage point playing live for each position? I assume you are looking at a hand chart and plugging in the hands you play from each position? If so, that's a serious leak.

You should be opening J9s from the HJ on some tables and folding it on some tables. You should be open folding AJ UTG on some tables and raising on some tables....ect There's no way you should have exact numbers for live poker unless you keep track of every single hand.

My numbers are somewhere around 23/17 or so, and people call me a nit all the time. One day a guy pointed to the three guys at the end of the table and said "tight, tighter, tightest". I was the "tightest". The first 2 guys probably play something like 12/4. People are really dumb and unobservant.

Why would you assume that? I never said I play from a chart. I created charts for each position with PokerCruncher in order to do range analysis. I also used it to try to calculate my PFR. I don't play from it though. It's my "default" opens and I do add or remove hands based on table conditions. I'm not an idiot Mike, although I may not be calculating the VPIP correctly. In the end I figure my live stats don't matter that much. I'm tight aggressive semi loose aggressive who cares the difference is a few %.

To be clear, someone raises and I fold that hand IS counted towards VPIP and PFR? If that's the case I'm probably averaging more like 18/15 (just a guess).

I know you're not an idiot. I just asked how you got such precise raise % from each position which is obviously impossible.

If someone raises and you fold, that hand IS counted towards total hands played but NOT in your VPIP (voluntary entering the pot).

Example for 1 orbit of a 9 handed table

You raise UTG
You limp UTG+1
You fold all other hands including folding to 2 raises when you were in the cutoff and OTB.
You fold the SB
You see a free flop from the BB.

Your stats are 25/12.5

The free BB doesnt count for anything because you made no decision. For stat purposes, you played 8 hands. You played 2 and raised 1. If you raised from the BB or called a raise from the BB you would have played 9 hands for stat purposes.

so played 2 of 8 =25?

raised 1 of the 2 played but 8 total = 12.5????

how do you track calling raises??????

Yeah I've got the VPIP/PFR down now thanks for clarifying. Seems really hard to calculate live since the only way to properly do it would be to know how often you face a raise in each position (which is super table dependent) and then how often you respond by calling, reraising, or folding. Which I can vaguely estimate but to actually track that I might as well record the preflop action for every hand for about 10k hands then figure it out. Too much work for something not that important...so I am just going with my educated guess in previous post.

May have overreacted thinking you were implying I was an idiot. Sorry. Just saw you talking about how I must be playing from a chart and have a huge leak and it seemed natural to conclude you think I don't know how to adjust ranges to table conditions. Which would make me either very inexperienced or an idiot. I'm not very inexperienced. Therefore...

Are you asking how do we account for them in this stat? If you call a raise it gets recorded just like a limp. You played the hand but didn't raise yourself.

The first number is the % of hands you voluntarily put money into the pot in any form. The second number is % of hands you are the preflop raiser.

You can keep a 3rd number for 3 bet% if you want to but 3 bets are also included in the 2nd number.

The only way to track it live is to actually count every hand you play. Personally I think tracking for maybe 20-30 hours will give you a pretty good estimate unless you are really card dead in which case you will know very easily when your stats are like 12/7 when you know your stats are higher than that. I would think 100 hours of tracking will be pretty accurate for most 100 hour samples.

In my room there are a couple of true nits. I'm not talking about tight players or very tight, I'm talking about people who just fold everything, except for TT+, AK and AQs. There aren't many of them, but they exist. One guy in my room literally only raises AA/KK. If I had to guess, after many hours playing with him, he limp/calls QQ-TT and AK/AQs and folds everything else, all the time. Post-flop he only bets or raises with the (effective) nuts. Everything else he plays passively. Like, if he has a set of queens on QT8 two-tone, he most likely won't even raise, since someone can have J9 or a flushdraw which might beat him later.

I have at times seen these guys play one or two hands in five hours, limp/folding included!

I have often wondered how this could be any fun for them at all. One of them is probably retired and alone, so I guess sitting in a casino a couple of times a week, folding everything, and not even making conversation at least gives him something to "do" at night, but still, in my opinion this guy should just be banned from the poker pit altogether, he is that bad for the game. He's taking the place of someone who might actually want to play a hand from time to time.

I don't particularly mind tight players, but true nits should just find another hobby. To be fair, in these days TAG players in live settings are also considered nits by most people, since they're hardly playing hands either. But then again, true TAG players are also few and far between in live games, since good TAGs have learned there's far more money to be made by opening up their game and bad TAGs have mostly turned into nits or bad LAGs. I play in a couple of very small rooms with mostly only one or two tables, but all the biggest winners play way, way more hands than the 2+2 community would advise them.

It's funny how you say this, and we're all making fun of nits here. Yet half the hands I post I get **** for being too loose pre. I remember two examples. First one I opened J9s four off the BTN. Someone said it was terrible. Second one I iso raises 96s on the BTN vs a huge fish. Again, people said it was questionable and that we shouldn't iso raise a huge range in that spot and try to play as many heads up pots in position vs huge fish. But hey, those guys are probably ITT making fun of nits too.

I’m not sure I agree with dividing by 8 and not 9.
Yes limping the bb is not vpip for sure.
But folding the bb to a raise should be a played hand. No?
Just like folding any other hand dealt. The hand is counted in number of hands.
So I think in your scenario we should still use 9 hands.

Which is funny because theoretically if every hand is limped by everyone the whole session. We’d have played 100% of hands but vpip would not be 100. It would be 8/9 or roughly 89%.

I'm sure someone could check pokertracker to see how its done there.

That's because a lot of 2+2ers are nits themselves.