Then in that case they should let the whale know about that. Or just lie and say they are a recovering alcoholic. Anything but "no sorry I don't want to drink".

Exactly,good point.

Or just contribute to the game in other ways. Like if the whale offer you a drink and you for some spesific reason just cant even take one drink, just counter him with something like "i have to admit am not a very good drinker, but hey i can put the straddle on instead so we can get this game going". Or say something like "Next time you are in the straddle i am gonna raise you without looking if it folds around to me" or anything that doesent give off the boring ubernit vibes.

We can discuss the sociological/anthropological reasons why it's an insult in some circles but really I think you're asking about whether such play is +EV. And of course our strategy shouldn't depend on epithets.

In many games "nitty" play is close to right, but there are also opportunities where a mix of "nittiness" and TAG-aggression gets more money.

Yesterday in a $1-3 ($200 effective): I pick up KK and open in MP to $7--oops, I meant to make it $10--get reraised to $20, loose call, folds back to me. I four-bet to $70 and get called two places. Flop three babies, I shove $130 into $210 and get two folds.

Perhaps I shouldn't be doing any preflop four-bet bluffing if they're all going to call. But perhaps I should add an occasional hand in that I can't call with and then bluff if they're going to play fit-or-fold on the flop. I need to think about this some more.


But my point is, I should basically be a "nit" here. I can build a 70 BB pot preflop with kings! But I shouldn't be so nitty that I never consider bluffing, because my cbet could have taken the pot down without cards.

Wouldn't mind straddling if the table is but I would never blind raise unless the entire table is doing it. 4bb (or 5bb depending on how big a straddle is) is a big chunk of your win rate unless you're crushing. Let's say that whale being there adds 10bb to your normal win rate. If your normal win rate is 10bb/hr (it's rare) then it's now 20bb/hr. You're still punting 15 minutes of your time in EV just to please the whale for one hand. If your normal win rate is 5bb/hr (way more common for a typical winning grinder) then it's now 15bb/hr. Now you're punting 20 minutes of your time in EV just to please the whale for one hand. I'm down to do things I woudn't normally do to keep a whale happy but I'm still not gonna suck the whale's dick to keep him around.

There are way better ways to please a whale. Alcohol is never mandatory. Straddles, sure. But other than those, there's this really cool trick nobody thinks about - putting the tablet/headphones away and *gasp* socializing.

Speaking of nitty mindset, this is pretty close to what i am talking about right here just saying

Being serious though, that was only couple of examples right off the bat from me. Use your imagination, and yeah putting away the tablet/earbuds shoudnt even be worth mentioning.Overuse of tablets, smartphones and earbuds have ruined countless pokergames and will continue to do it in the future. I only use earbuds for music when i need some breaks from socializing once in a while during long sessions.

You know what's better than having the occasional drink or putting in an extra 2BB per round because everyone's doing it? Being action. Whales can see right through you if you are reluctantly sipping a beer and are folding nearly every straddle unless you have the goods.

Making -EV plays to force action to please someone can't be good. If I'm card dead I'm card dead. I'll use that image to my advantage if I see a spot where I can get away with it. But if four people including the whale limp in and I'm looking down at K4s, in the muck it goes.

Sure, but this thread is about being a nit and why that word have such negative connotations. Many whales are not stupid (alot of fish can be not seasoned whales who have money to dump in poker games), they already know who the good winning players is, or they learn it pretty fast.

I mean, the point isnt that you are gonna loosen up and give so much action that you become a losing player. The point is that its possible to be a winning player AND be good for the game at the same time, at least not being a true nit.

Would rather get my throat slit with a spoon than be any part nit or nerd or reg.

For some regs keeping the whale at the table or being good for the game isn’t important to them. They would much rather berate the whale when they feel like it, continue in their nitty ways, etc. And yes these people are idiots, especially when they complain about not getting any action or constantly complain that the game isn’t good enough.

The nits at 1-2 tend to be pretty bad. They are more likely to be tight and passive than anything else. Some might not even raise AK or JJ or 3-bet anything besides AA/KK.

Oh? Your calcs may be off. I doubt you're mucking rather than checking if it's limped to your straddle, check-folding flopped full houses or better, or mucking the river without facing a bet. In other words straddle hands have equity. "Big blind special" -> "Straddle special"

There are a couple more points worth noting. Straddles are often just 2x. And if your room allows a button straddle, it's probably +EV or at least zero EV to straddle your button. (For example, Jonathan Little advocates button straddling unless you will prompt everyone else to do it, because we'd rather keep this play for ourselves.

I usually wouldn't UTG straddle unless everyone is doing it, because IME it's not necessary to build an image. 3-betting 98s on the button when it's +EV and then barreling down if it's +EV are better ways to advertise. Even with a whale in the game there will be moments.

But if the game is so loose that you can't even get out of line, even for just a little EV, then wasting ~1.5 bb is probably not terrible.



The biggest point is, whether you agree with a straddle or not, if you consider investing a little to get a lot back to be "suck[ing] the whale's dick" then you're making emotional decisions; people who are carefully evaluating EV don't tend to think in those terms.

Nits win all the money.

Similar as getting accused of being a nit, what do you guys do when you get accused of being a pro?

Not really it's just setting a personal boundary. Straddling is the boundary, unless the entire table is "double" straddling. I don't need to go that far out of my way to appease someone. If I do, that pushover mentality will carry over to other aspects of my life.

Since I'm not currently playing 2/5, laugh and say "this is 1/3 everyone here sucks at poker including you and me".

I say thank you for the compliment
I didn't think I was that good and I know my wallet would disagree with you when it goes home empty every night

GOLD STANDARD advice and put into practice!

No man, I play at Horseshoe, Blue Chip, and Majestic Star in NWIndiana, but I'm really thinking about starting to play at the Windy City Poker events every weekend, it's only a 4 dollar rake!

Good analysis, in my case they can tell that I really don't have the same temperament for gambling. They try to do the "if the flop is 2 black i pay you 10, if 2 red you pay me 10" all the time and i just shake my head no. I also refuse to do "flips" with them. I hate that stuff.

It's taken me a lot time to respect other players and their motivations towards the game. I do have to change my strategy at wild tables and it's been a long process. I recognize that such players are very important to the game so I always compliment them on calls with fourth pair even though I know that it's -EV in the long term. I appreciate all the gamble that they show now. I didn't use to.

Yeah it was at the horseshoe
I heard they are really soft
I think they got 1/1 and 1/3

Wish someone would confuse me with that! LOL, i'm a small timer unfortunately.

Oh, OK, no, name isn't Mike. Three guys I know have raved about those games. The one guy gets there at 10:30 to be guaranteed of a seat and it starts at 12. He told me it's unlimited buy in--for a 1/2!!! Wow.

Because bad players still can’t stop paying them off so they insult them/us


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I got that alot before, especially when i was staying in Vegas for 2,5 months last fall and played daily all over the strip for an extended period of time. What ive found is that i feel really comfortable at the table after playing for quite some years now, and i guess some people also picks up on that.

Everybody to their own plan or what they are comfortable with, but i tried to just brush it off lighthearted as soon as those kind of topics got brought up and change the subject.Like any of the how much you are winning/ you play part time pro/ you play fulltime pro/strategy talk and so forth are the worst for the atmosphere of the game, so yeah i just have a number of excuses/explenations to brush it off. I try the best i can to kill those conversations before the whole table catches up and gets involved in it if you know what i mean.

Like the ones i uses the most is simply that i was on a long holiday with lots of poker between jobs, or that i dont like partying/shopping like my friends do all the time so i prefer to play cards instead or anything reasonable that comes to my mind when i am there. To just laugh it off instantly like you are far from a pro or far from making good money off of poker is also a good approach.