I'm really struggling with opening ranges in live games.


Online mostly it folds to you or someone opens in front of you.
Sometimes you get one maybe two limpers.

So we can easily open our good hands to get more value out of them.


Live however, you often have 1-4 limpers in front of you and you just know that 70% of the time 80% of them will just call your raise anyway.
Unless you raise to such a ridiculous amount that no one is calling (well hopefully, because sometimes they still will).
You also just know that once one of them calls, the ones behind are so much more likely to call as well.
(Yes I made up these percentages.)


Let's make this into an example hand.

9 handed
Hero is BTN with AJo
4 casual reg-fish limp
Hero raises to 8BB
4 reg-fish call

I've seen this happen SOOO many times.


How do we play against these types of players?

Do we just overlimp when we know there is very little chance to get any of them out preflop?

Do we try to find an amount to raise that will make them fold most of the time?
What would that amount be in this example? 10BB? 15BB? 20BB?

Do we really wanna make the pot this big with AJo? I'm guessing yes, since they are calling with worse hands often enough.

What types of hands do we wanna blow up the pot with?
I'm guessing strong hands like AT+, 99+, lots of broadways?

Are there more hands we should fold against a lot of limpers that we would normally open or raise with?

Are there hands we wanna keep the pot small with?
I'm guessing small pairs and suited connectors are better to just call with here?

Aren't we turning our hands face up here too often?
Probably doesn't matter against the limp fishies?


The real issue here is having all (4 in this case) call, severely hurting your chances to win post-flop and putting you at risk for the rest of your stack since you raised to 8BB early, got called by 4 players and the pot is now 40BB.

What do we do if we flop TP here? Are we willing to put in the rest of our stack here often? It's likely one of the 4 fishies will have hit something at least, sometimes something better.

Are we really winning much more when we hit a TP kinda hand?
Aren't we losing much more when we hit a TP kinda hand and one of the fishies hits something better?

I’ve found success with a couple of different strategies. If the table is sticky post flop I keep my preflop raises smaller, welcome players into the pot, and play very tight postflop. When the table is fit or fold I make bigger raises (basically I increase my raise size by 1 BB each time until I find a point that gets folds) and than play aggressive post flop with fewer players left in the hand.

If Vs are all going to call a 15BB raise than the only solution is to tighten up.

IMO there are other solutions as well. I've never had to go as high as 15 BB and I'm not sure I would unless I was very deep with a strong hand. If 10-12 BB isn't working, going back to 5-8 BB isn't a disaster. You're still building a pot with a range advantage in position. You wont be able to cbet as often, and you'll need to be more careful with sizing post but IME it's still greater EV to raise than call. Sure there will be times top pair isn't good but even with 4 callers I think we can identify which boards are more likely to hit Vs 2 pair+ range. Just because we hit top pair we dont have to stack off every time vs every player type. We can take a bet/bet/check line and win a much larger pot than if we limped pre. Facing aggression we can eval, pot control, or fold as needed.

The preflop result that OP is describing is so common in my 1/3 NL game that it is one of the reasons I've really toned down my aggression preflop.

In my earlier days I would have hated the fact that I'm overlimping AJo due to the fact I'm seeing a flop eleventeen ways and AJo doesn't play that great eleventeen ways. But it plays *even worse* when you bring handcuffing commitment issues into play in small SPR multiway bloated pots. At least in high SPR pots I can put my position and postflop skillz (lol?) to work.

And meanwhile raising larger and larger and larger to find that sweetspot (if it exists?) also sucks. Yeah, we'll eventually find a spot where we're taking down the 5.5 bbs some of the time, but risking 12 bbs to do so doesn't make a whole lotta sense (and becomes a nightmare when running into dominating hands which we unwittingly then have to commit against in lol low SPR pots).

Gjustoverlimp,seeaflop,andplaypostfloppokerinposit ion,imoG

The way this plays out is very different then online, you can't use that as a base line for your live opens. Live players like to see more flops and more of the play is post flop. This is generally true of both bad and good players, though for entirely different reasons.

A bit of both, you need to find what raise size works for the table and how it's plays in general and then work from there. I have been at 1/2 tables where $5 was enough to clear the field, I've also been at ones where $20 wasn't enough. That kind of disparity forces you to adjust your opening and limping ranges, sizes and general play style to the situation.

That depends. One of the key things to watch for at 1/2 and 1/3 is how many people habitually limp/call with AK/AQ and how weak of AX hands they play. AJo/ATo falls into a weird situation where it generally isn't worth playing at all if the situation isn't such that you can raise. Your one pairs won't be good often enough, if you catch two pair somebody is likely to have a good straight draw and you won't make a straight enough.

The general idea is hands that are likely to win on their own or win when you hit top pair. You have the right idea but you need to adjust your range on the fly. It's really a ratio of preflop betting size vs typical stack sizes. When SPR will be really small AQ+/JJ+ and some face card suited connectors is about it for your value range. As the table gets tighter and you can use smaller bets you can open that up. At the wider end something like 77+, A9s+, AJo+, suited face cards and KQo. But even that has to be tweaked further, particularly how many hands you can take down with c-bets and bluff at later in the hand.

At tables where you need to open big yes. Against the fish it won't matter much but a dangerous situation arises sometimes when you have one or two other competent players in a group of fish. The better players start getting into weird metagame bluffs against each other. They know their ranges are strong so reraises should be super strong, so reraises are mostly folded too but that obviously opens up the door for some bluffs in seemingly absurd situations.

Games where people will call stupid sized bets preflop are high profit but also high variance. It's just something you have to live with. This sort of situation is why avoiding hands like AJ/AT is often a good idea, you don't want situations where you flop top pair and don't like your hand.

Id just like to say one thing. Everyone who plays mostly online thinks live games are so soft. Live players are soooo bad. They all think live games are a joke. THey think they will destroy live games.

Mostly, live players do suck, but once these primarily online players get in these games, they realize situations like the one described by OP make live games much more complicated than they thought.

Back to the original question....if Im in a game where multiple limpers are calling like dominoes and there are 4 limpers and I have AJ OTB, I will make it 10x without hesitation if that's what I have to do to get it closer to 2-3 ways to the flop. I find the limpers pain threshold for calling raises and I go just past it.

Ill make it 20x if I have to....and I'll do it with hands much weaker than AJ. Im not avoiding hands like AJ/AT just because the limpers keep calling raises. I dont care. Im going to make them play my game.

I guess going to 10x, 15x or even 20x is optimal if you know villains are calling too often with worse hands.

As far as I know, that is the reason we raise preflop, because players call with too often with worse hands.

Build the pot when you hold a hand statistically the most likely to win it.

Making it 20x with AJ/AT/KQ/etc. with 60x - 100x stacks in play is a recipe for disaster if anyone is passively limping dominating hands. The lots of small pots we steal risking huge bbs won't make up for the times we lose our huge bbs in the terrible cases.

GimoG

I'll admit I'm still fence sitting on this statement (which is a very common one) a little bit, but in NL I'm leaning to it not necessarily being correct. NL isn't about winning pots (which this statement is geared towards), it's about winning money.

GcluelessNLnoobG

just raise huge and be prepared to 4bet jam light for value if you think people will adjust by 3bet bluffing you
earlier post about finding the pain threshold is correct. this will vary from game to game. but it is much more than a 3bb +1 per limper open almost always.
playing this way effectively means you are playing a larger game than the blinds indicate. you need to be comfortable playing postflop and playing deep.
this is where your ability to win at showdown is going to come into play big. you will need to be showing down middle pair and winning in bloated pots a lot.

if you are nitty just overlimp you will make mistakes postflop because you don't like big pots.

We don't have to worry about this as folks who limp/call top 10% hands preflop are likely to fold OTF facing one bet.

in general when we're the first raiser into the pot we should have a strong range advantage vs the hands that limp/call us

Raise huge with value hands you are comfortable playing big pots with, limp behind with small/medium pairs, broadways, the best suited connectors, suited aces, and fold everything else. Easy game.

I think the statement of building a big pot when you have best hand is absolutely geared towards winning money not winning pots.

If 100bb stack will limp/call a 15bb raise with a2 to ak and stack off any ace then it isnt much of a concern when we do run into aq/ak.

OP kind of answers his own question. If you have a good hand and raise to a size where they just call, then raise bigger.

Like AJo likes value against wide ranges and likes being HU. If 8 bb isn't accomplishing it, try 10. Then try 12. Keep going.

One huge thing about live poker is that live players want to play "real poker". IOW, preflop isn't actually a street of poker, it's the "price of admission". Exploit this.

People are allowed to limp/reraise and even limp/call with monsters. Putting in huge 1/3rd - 1/7th of our stack preflop with a big 20x raise with just 60x - 100x stacks in play to win 5x against players like this ain't going to work out too well, imo.

Unlike Mike I don't keep detailed stats on anything, but my guess a huge percentage of my profit simply comes from players being overly aggressive preflop with marginal holdings. Having said that, I guess it's true they could still be profitable overall as well (in spite of the times where the run into me), but their method certainly helps my bottom line.

ETA: And as to the line of thought regarding making our preflop raises larger and larger until we find the sweet spot, there has to be a size (relative to stacks) that this no longer makes sense with marginal holding. I mean, it's pretty clear that shoving isn't going to be profitable, right? So, where's the upper limit? You're approaching it pretty fast in non-deep games, imo.

GIshouldprobablyjusttrollandencourageit,tbhG

Why would you not want to get it in pre-flop with AJ against a 30% range?
If people call that much that wide, I'd happily get it in with AT+ against them.

Ofcourse we're not going to raise to 10x when a nit on UTG has limped ...
We're doing this against loose fish who play almost any two cards.

Yeah, unless you're sitting there with 4-5 buyins ready to pop, I don't think raising 15-20x with AJ type hands works.

The situation op described is dead on for my local casino. Players all calling pre, splashing money around, calling down top or even middle pair. I tend to focus more on hands that run well in large multi way pots - suited connectors for example. AJ I'll probably just flat if there's already 3+ flatting before me. I don't care if I then have to fold when the board bricks.

When you're raising to say 45 after 4 people flatted pre and then 2 of them call your 45 and the board comes K 9 7 for example, what are you doing there? Go hard and hope they haven't hit?

I've found its better to play tight, get involved with either:

A: decent hands that when you hit you're in a decent position

B: S/C where you get your lucky straight or something and seriously milk them dry.

I've found that usually these players won't be super aggressive, but more just calling stations so use that to your advantage. Very rarely bluff, etc.

10X pre sounds good.

I like to play as deep as I can these days so I keep increasing the raise size until it works. Had a similar table at 2/5 and another reg gave me a side glance when his 7bb raise got called in 4 spots. We finally found our sweet spot at 10-11bb to get one or two callers.

If you don’t have the deep stack or multiple buy ins then I just raise for value and only cbet when we crush the flop or can 3bet an obvious ‘feeler bet’ from someone in early position.

In this thread:
"Hey, we can build a pot in position vs multiple weak players who have equally weak ranges. We have a clear skill and equity advantage, so what is the best way to make our opponents NOT put more money in the pot?"


And (undoubtedly) in the coming comments below: "But Viral, what if we miss the flop? We'll be in an uncomfortable spot and we won't know what to do."


And if i may make some further reading suggestions:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...highlight=cotm

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...highlight=cotm

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...highlight=cotm

Viral nailed it. You could raise and just play fit or fold if theyre so sticky. It's what I used to do and it was smooth sailing, value value value.

Here was my plan: raise pre. Check fold 60% of the time OTF or if I hit:
Bet/fold for value OTF
Bet/fold for value OTT
Bet/fold for value OTR

I should go back apparently the games are still just as good.

AJo has a clear equity advantage against a zillion limpers / a pot going very multiway to the flop?

I've argued this before, but not only is it at very best an extremely marginal hand, it may at worst literally be one of the worst hands (i.e < 72o, cuz exactly how poor of RIO do we have with the that?). IMO.

I was buried most of my 12.75 hr session on Sunday, but got almost all of it back in a hand on the last orbit, most of it to do with an opponent overvaluing AJo preflop which got him on the way to getting pot stuck postflop (although admittedly he wasn't expert enough to prevent himself from getting stacks in with 3 no-bigger-than-2/3PSBs postflop (which expert players may be able to avoid).

If you're an expert, you'll probably do fine whatever you do with it. Most non-experts would probably be better of folding it after 4 limpers (for realz).

GcluelessRIOnoobG

I'm sorry but I have to correct you here.

Yes, AJ does have a significant equity advantage in this spot.

Vs 5 ranges of 15%-50% it has 23.55% equity versus 15% each for the field.

I'll take that as a starting point for a "raising the limpers" range from the button and I also don't hate AT.

If you cannot convert an 8% equity advantage postflop in position, that's not the fault of the maths.

If one of the limpers a known nit who you have seen sandbagging big hands and you get heads up against him, then you take that into consideration postflop, but you don't reject the spot, and postflop is a completely other conversation.