In low stake poker as in any poker you don't attack a player, you attack a players leaks. Its easy to forget this because ABC poker takes advantage of a large number of the fish type calling too much leaks and we often don't think much beyond that. A good low stakes tag...(like hopefully most 2+2ers and me) leak like a sieve. Luckily most low stake players can't take advantage of us.

Against this guy...you figure he isolates light...so you should be 3 betting his life to death when you in the btn and sometimes in the Co. Any weak A and any suited K and if you have not had any of those for a while any two cards will do...he will fold enough for a profit...and it will stop him after a couple of times from Iso your fish....

Here trying to take advantage on him on the turn.makes total sense...If he hand reads at all (and most so called good tags a low stakes do it at a minor level) you call of his flop bet looks very strong. It's either a monster hand wanting to keep the fish in or a big draw...and most likely hearts...So attacking the turn when he check great play.

When he calls your turn bet after checking...he told you he has a big hand...either a pair with a draw Ak AQ with the K or Q of h earts...or a made flush (something no one seems to be considering)....then he checks...does he really check a set type hand...giving you free cards to your flush if you have AQh or a straight draw.

Now everyone thinks he has to bet the river with big flushes...the problem is if he has the Kh or the Qh....you don't have many flushes in you range that will call. Your telling me that after the 4th heart hits the river...you guys would call the river with jh-9h and he thinks you will...You really think he thinks that his big flush gets thin value from you if he bets it.

Not only that with the Ah on the flop and an 8 on the flop...every flush that you call with pre flop has a straight and flush draw or a pair and a flush draw....and has to be discounted as you did not raise the flop...(though I doubt most low stakes tags think along those lines...I tend to about 10 minutes after I played the hand)

I like the turn bet...once he calls he has huge strength....give it up on the river.

Where trying to take advantage of a leak...he calls the turn to tight when his "hand reading" tells him he's beat....now becomes I'm trying to out play a solid player by betting big on a threating river so he lays down his big hand....Thats where attacking strong ranges not strong players is a mistake.

We want results!

Really on point comments here from TAO and NS. These are the two problems I had with the had when I reviewed the hand history to myself.

It will be hard for me to rep a if both or even one of the fish calls. They could very likely be on the fd and that also would mean that my straight outs are dirty. I do always watch players reactions to actions, I'm guessing in game I had a feel that they were uninterested, but I do not recall.

NS, don't know how deep villain can think in game, but your analysis of how it would be hard for me to get to the river with the K or Q with my line is exactly on point. I would have had to of had the flush ott, and if I have the nuts otr, then my hand should be QJ or KQ. Which I likely would have raised flop with. I am really surprised someone pointed this out. (not surprised it was you obv )

I appreciate your feedback and am glad I got different perspectives in this post. I do want to reiterate that I normally avoid this villain's table, and that I wasn't exaggerating when I said we literally hadn't played a hand together in 2 hours, when I have the god seat on him.

I know all too well to strategically target droolers, in fact, that's why I chose this table, bc of the fish I recognized. I do think there is value to be had by taking "advantage" of players that know what they are doing.

This wasn't a matter of stroking ego or trying to play against good villains, it was an opportunity that presented itself. When that flop came out, I could have gone in two directions. I thought to myself, "no matter what he has, he's not going to like a lot of turns, and I haven't played at him the entire time we've been here" It was a split second decsion to pursue opportunity, I was not gunning for him at all.


Agreed, thats what led to me going down the path less traveled.

Yes. I don't know what is going on with all of the "if he calls turn he's not folding river" As NS said, what are you doing with AQ ott. AK? I'm sure he's flatting at that point but can he really sustain a river jam? Again given the history I have on him I think sets are the bottom of his calling range otr. I believe he sigh calls/folds either way, not sure.

When I bet turn I didn't think I was folding him out, that is why I sized it the way I did, for a psb river jam, bc all but the top of his range would fold to that imo. The changed things of course.

Results:




I am still interested in this question if anyone wants to chime in. A sticky spot for sure from a villain's perspective with AQ/AK which look like dog poo. If we take a b/f line we are building a hefty pot, if flatted ott we send a blocker otr?

Also, no one has any input on my stack size to bet size question? We are fine betting 60% of stack? Another way to ask, when someone bets 60% of their stack otr, would you normally think it is for value or as a bluff? I'm guessing "it depends".

If I had AK/AQ in v's shoes I would b/f the turn and if called probably c/f the river since I'm OOP against the only other good player at the table.

As for the bet size, I think leaving some behind looks much stronger but it all depends on how he reads it.

I'll share my opinion, but keep in mind that the reason I asked the question is because I'm not at all sure that my opinion is right. Given that we (as villain) bet into 3 people and got called, it's unlikely that BTN is floating us with pure air. With that said, I think I prefer c/f on this turn, because most draws have pulled ahead of us, and I think most TAGs would check behind a worse Ax OTT. If turn checks through, I would b/f brick rivers (maybe even b/c? idk). This line feels pretty weak though, so it might be bad.

If the pot were HU to the flop then I prefer c/c or b/f turn with that hand depending on how bluffy I perceive villain to be (obviously the bluffier he is the more I lean toward c/c over b/f), taking a c/eval river line in either case that probably ends up as a c/f most of the time.

I'd still very much appreciate others' input.

Also fwiw I like villain's turn c/c given the hand he actually had. I like to think I'd snap you off on the river though

tbh I was thinking c/f as well for AQ/AK, but god that just sounds so hella weak and in game I most likely use my go-to b/f line.

Still, given dynamic and the fact that button has pretty much left us alone for the last two hours, a c/f probably isn't that bad. 2pr+, though almost the same hands against btn range that got there ott, I probably b/f.

Agree that villain would have likely called, I don't know that I've ever gotten middle set to fold in llsnl, let alone on only a three flush board (assuming blank river I mean). He is certainly good enough to know he shouldn't be too excited about calling, but yea he's likely calling nonetheless. Man that would have been a sick brag.

Still, the top of his range, and a lot of combos of hands that are folding imo.

FWIW I didn't show.

"What do you guys think is the optimal turn line if you're villain and have something like AQ without a heart, and how do you handle blank rivers?"

If I was villain, I would have to make a decision OTT if Hero is good/aggressive enough to float me and then bluff the OTT. If I had never seen you do this before, I am simply folding turn and not even feeling bad about it.

However, if I call turn I am calling all blank rivers, including a shove. I am folding all rivers.

@Avaritia: I hope you would have raised him if he bet the turn.

Thanks for your response TAO. It kind of goes against what I was thinking myself (for reasons I stated earlier ITT I think BTN's range might be bluffier on a heart river than non-heart if he's aggro, even if that seems counterintuitive), but it also makes a lot of sense. I probably just need to think this one over more.

Sorry for derailing your thread into a series of hypotheticals, but I think this is worth discussing as well. I prefer c/c with these hands over b/f. B/f only really gets value against Ax, and I doubt that he's calling both turn and river with that, so we can achieve the same value as a turn bet by checking turn and betting blank rivers if it checks through. At that point, the advantages of c/c are that he might be floating sometimes and c/c gets more value from floats, and c/c prevents us from getting raised off our boat draw by a made straight or flush. The advantage of b/f seems to be that it charges Ax with a heart to continue, but if he's calling a turn bet with that anyway and would also do so if he misses the river after turn checks through, I'd rather make the one bet that we can get in good when we have 100% equity than when he has live outs. If he would call a turn bet with Axh but would fold to a river bet unimproved after turn checks through, then maybe b/f is better, but I don't think this is the case, and even if it is it might be outweighed by the c/c advantages I just stated. Thoughts?

Not derailing at all.

I can tell you I have done a lot of work to get c/c'ing out of my game in general. The times I still utilize it intentionally I am usually OOP otr, and an obvious flop flush or straight draw has whiffed and I have a value hand. I have gotten better at checking in these situations as it gets so much value from just total air. Also learning that 1/2 villains do indeed bet big bluffs otr, you just have to give a little encouragement with a check

You make a good case on why we should be c/c'ing here, it is the same theory, villain may try to rep something that he doesn't have. I just think (avoiding the results orientedness of this hand) that I wouldn't give many players (even savvy ones) in 1/2 credit for repping scary turn cards. So when I check, he is betting a value hand in my mind most of the time, the only problem is I don't know what he is viewing as value. (in hand, he would likely know if I am valuing a hand it has AK crushed, so c/f is good)

I'm really torn and agree that it would be a crappy spot in general.

Even if he never floats with air, I still prefer c/c over b/f with sets or 2-pair OTT for the other reasons I discussed in my last paragraph. Admittedly in that case, and possibly in the actual hand as well, his calling OTT would be wider than his betting range (in that he bets Ax OTT some of the time but not often, and calls with it almost all the time), so if the turn were the last street of the hand b/f would clearly be better, but the fact that we can make up this value with a river bet should even this out, leaving the advantages of not getting blown off your draw vs. a better hand and getting more equity on your one bet against Ax when he has a heart as the "tiebreakers" that would make me c/c. But again, this assumes that he never calls both turn and river with just Ax or any other hand we beat (I assume he always raises 2p+ OTF); if he does so even sometimes, b/f b/f is better. Since you prefer a turn b/f, what is your river plan (let's just assume you have exactly TT for simplicity and specificity's sake)?

Sorry for repeating myself there, but I felt that we were beginning to argue past each other, so I wanted to take a step back and hopefully clarify myself a bit.

If BTN "villain" is competent, the only non-flush hands that are likely to call a turn bet are sets. So if roles were reversed, check/calling or check/folding is better IMO than bet/folding since villain's betting range should be wider than his calling range.

Most of the time, bet/folding is better since the majority of LLSNL players aren't good enough to float/bluff rep hands AND they do get sticky with big aces and 2p hands even if the flush hits. Checking won't widen a weak player's range AND betting gets value from their hands that are ignoring relative value.

If I'm in villains seat with AK or AQ, I'm not putting any real money into the pot on that turn card. You called in a protected multiway pot. You have a big draw or a big hand.

Problem is on the heart, all the draws got there except the j9s and qjs no heart for 6 combo's. And I would expect you to check back all you'r one pair hands since my range is so strong on that turn.

with his set he should be bet folding or bet calling (depending on the odds to draw) since you can have a lower set or 2 pair type hand that might call.

Preflop and flop are standard for me.

I understand our turn/river plan, especially against a good villain who has a fold button and who probably doesn't want to get mixed up in a big hand with the only other good player at the table OOP.

Having said all that, I probably take the conservative route here. I know it's +EV to call this flop and potentially get a free card to get me to the river, where I'll have an easy value bet vs fold decision. Is it more +EV than the route you took? I'm not sure. But I definitely know it's more high variance. And we're sitting at table full of spewy fish. Taking a big hit to our stack (especially if one of the spewy fish doubles up), plus perhaps a mental hit, could be devastating.

So I check back the turn and only plan on putting more money into the pot if I hit.

Gabc,123,boring=45degreeanglesessiongraphfordecent winrateG

IMO another heart on the river is the bad card for you. His range should have a lot of big hearts once he check-calls you on the turn. I like your plan btw - just think you should not be following through on hearts.

Also, I feel that you are better of following through on a paired board river if he checks - don't see him not betting with a boat so if he checks its more likely he had a big heart.

I hope to have half as much logic in my game after a year as everyone that's commented here. Thank you OP for posting an amazing hand, I learned a lot.

I'm always betting this river, I think $175 or so is good. He should be folding when he doesn't have a heart, which is going to be most of the time on this board. Maybe you could bet $200 for max FE. Shoving is overkill though and probably not even profitable.

So he might play a little tighter and more aggressive than your average $1/$2 fish but he's not really thinking things through. Not that I would be seeking him out or anything...but yeah great reinforcement he gave you by flashing his set before folding.

Good job on coming up with a backup plan for your straight draw and following through with it. One of the guys I listen to loves straight draws more than flush draws because you can often rep the flush when your straight misses especially if you're OOP with a c/c, c/c, lead when flush card hits line. And when your straight hits it looks like you busted a flush draw when you lead out the river.

sick sizin'. i expect to be called line oooot

wtf, ego or player aside, how is this hand not super standard from pre to flop to turn?

3betting QJs in that spot is dumb. Obviously you can 3bet light vs an isolator, but QJs is definitely NOT the kind of hand you want to do it with because it's too strong. You don't just go "oh we should 3bet I heard 3betting is cool" and 3bet whatever hand you have.

Agree completely. I'd much rather have ace rag to 3! here tbh.

Sol what are you doing on different rivers if checked to? Paired shutting down, blank jamming, heart sizing? These would be the actions I was leaning to.

I probably jam any non ace tbh non heart, that might seem a bit simple but it seems okay. I think betting 115 on a heart would be good.