Thats all fine and agreeable, but you are buying into mike's self-advertising himself as being "hated", dont be fooled, this is nothing more than marketing, hes projecting an image and trying to reinforce it EVERYTIME someone constructively discusses anything with him.

no one hates mike, and while i agree he brings useful.perspectives to the table, he lashes out and is too defensive, its obvious hes operatong at a very immature level, not saying im better, we are all here to improve ourselves but im afraid that only comes with genuine objective self-reflection...mike fights against such refection tooth and nail, he is very similar to who i was for many years, i can honestly relate.

[[/RIGHT]QUOTE=MikeStarr;51223455]All I can do is shake my head at the amount of stubborn people here who refuse to accept anything other than what they already know and believe to be the gospel. Opening your mind to other thought processes is the path to improvement. Not saying you aren't good already, but there's always ways to improve. Im working on my math at the table. Lots of people here should be trying to think outside the box. That's how you beat people who are as good at standard poker as you are.[/QUOTE]



mike, read the above, youll be hard pressed to see how your attitude isnt one of a stuck-up emotional egoistic dismissal. The comment was constructive, and as usual, you take it so personally, and you scramble back in your shell. you have potential, fk your ego, move forward.

youre right about a lot of what youve said in this post, its just a bit more subtle than youre thinking.

But the OP said there is fold equity in these games. These villains usually aren't calling stations and will fold after the flop.

I've seen plenty of games like this at the low stakes.



I think that poster read the title of the thread, didn't read the first post and assumed this thread would be about how to play against calling stations instead of how to play against regs who tighten up after the flop. I thought the same thing before I read any posts here. I thought this was going to be about how to beat really loose games.

Let me give you a couple of examples that might help:

- People are terrible at gauging the relative strength of their hand. They cannot fold worse trips, flushes, full houses, TPGK, etc. We have to be aggressive into the pot when we hold a hand at the top of the villain's calling range.

- People see far too many flops because they came to gamble gamble. We can profitably raise larger pre and play fewer hands. We can punish limpers for dead money. Etc.

- People call instead of raising far too often. Villains do not bet often enough. This allows us to fold more often than they do when faced with action, because they aren't putting us in positions to make as many hero calls as they think we should make.

Ava is describing the general condition that leads to these spots.

______________

I absolutely agree with the concept of fold equity, but if you are using fold equity as an excuse for bluffing without considering the board and your opponent, you're doing it wrong. You'd probably be better off never bluffing.

The money comes from you plugging your leaks and a bit of creative turn play imo. Save 3 4-5bb opens an hour and c/r a few turn bets oop or barrel a few more hands.

Also you can float nitty regs pretty easily, thin vbet mid pp that beats second board pair,etc

I don't really think that people come to gamble in these games from the description the OP gives, assuming they are similar to many of the games I've played in.

I think they see a lot of flops not because they came to gamble, but because they can see 3 more cards for a price they think is cheap. At 1-2 NL they are often limping hoping to see flops for $2. Even when someone raises, there are often other callers so they don't mind putting in $10 because they think they have implied odds (even though they have a very poor understanding of implied odds). They think it's worth it to put in $2, or something like $6-$15 in a multiway pot, in an attempt to hit a monster and hopefully win hundreds of dollars.

So their strategy is often to see a lot of cheap flops, and then fold if they don't make much of a hand. If they make a monster, they either slowplay or try to put a lot of money in the pot. A lot of players I've seen also will not stack off with top pair, and they get scared and nitty even with trips, sets, and straights if a flush is on the board.

You're right though that they still are bad at judging how strong their hands really are so they will still make some loose calls after the flop, but they also tend to see a lot of flops which will result in them having wide, weak ranges after the flop, so it's rare they put much money in after the flop.

I think a lot of these players are actually trying to win, but make many of the mistakes they make because they're still pretty bad.

I will not argue they are trying to win. I am arguing that they don't know how to do so and there are consistencies in their actions that are exploitable

Rumor, your patience is better than mine bud. You still playing regularly these days?

Team, I'm debating posting a giant wall of text on this subject, but if you can't find the games rumor and I describe, seat change/table change/room change.

I've played in 12-15 rooms and they all had great games. Poker ain't what it was in 2010, but it's still pretty good. If you're looking to steal blinds in a live 1/2 game, is time to take up another hobby.

FWIW, I would guess that I bluff significantly more than most on this forum. But I do it in spots where I have ended up in a situation (on the river, deep) where my range is uncapped and villain is either thinking or scared money (both are pretty rare in live poker!). But going out looking for spots to bluff is just a waste of energy.

It's like trying to squeeze blood from a stone when you're surrounded by blood banks. It's not where the money comes from in live poker.

My play is way down. Too many other good things going on, especially with the fam. Have been getting out locally some more but nowhere near where I was 2 years ago. Going to go give the monies away in LV soon, so I'm using this for some extra practice.

My sense is the potential winrate in my local market is down slightly due to games being tighter relative to 2-3 years ago in my local market, plus 2-5 runs less and less often here. The general trends still remain - people play their cards and not their opponents, people limp too much, people buy in short and don't change their starting hand selection accordingly, and they are still terrified to bet and raise.

It reads like you are playing less? I hope that means good things in your other career.

Giant wall of text would be greatly appreciated, Ava.

Do you think this is applicable to 5-10+ live games too?

I actually agreed with most of what you said. Mostly just disagreed with the part about them coming to gamble.

I'm talking about how to play in the nittiest games at this level with players playing loose PF and playing fit or fold after the flop. And even in these games you can find good spots to make value bets so it's not that the entire plan is to recklessly bluff.

The marginal stuff I raise with PF are hands with some value that might be really strong at showdown, not trash like T3o. And I do it in position.

If you just pick up extra money here and there from players limp folding to you and consistently folding to c-bets, that adds significantly to the winrate. Instead of just doing okay playing ABC/TAG, you can still play that style OOP and then be more aggressive at least on the BTN, CO and HJ.

When they do call your c-bet, you'll get to see the turn and maybe the river, and this is where it helps if you raised a hand PF with some value.

I think my game is very much as you and Rumor described and I'd love to see the wall of text.

Stealing "blinds" is pretty meaningless in a live 1/2 game but stealing is kind of my bread and butter move. 2 limper, I make it $15 from CO with Q5 get 1 caller, cbet 80% of flops and get a fold 75% of the time. Easy money.

Sure sometimes it goes to hell. I'll make it $15 from CO, get 5 callers and look at a AKT flop and there's a bet and a raise and I happily fold away.

If I'm raising some junk hand to steal from in position I don't want a call behind me and I don't want > 2 callers total but 1 or 2 coming along is perfectly fine with me.

Another thing I should mention is I play in Vegas which is nit heaven with all the freerolls and aces cracked promos going on. That will change the mentality of some of the regs who are there to get their hours in more than anything else. It also attracts nittier players.

I just hope the wall of text has more to say than simply "bet for value against calling stations" because we already know that.