Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
When to call down light? When to call down light?

02-19-2014 , 05:47 PM
Weird hand came up in my last session that I wasn't used to.

V is a 40 something average looking white guy who I have read as a tricky, smart player. He has bluff raised to take down a pot on the turn recently and shown, plays his position well, all around above average player for my $1/2 game IMO.

A few hands before the hand in question I was involved in a bloated pot in position with 66 and the flop was QXX, checked around OTF. Turn was 2 and checked around again to me in the CO and I bet close to pot. Everyone folded except V who tanked, showed me JJ then eventually folded. I showed the 6 to try to tilt him.

A few hands later Hero in the BB with 75 and it limps around for a 10 handed family pot. V is on the button. Effective stacks ~ 240

Flop: 754 ($20)

SB donks $5, Hero raises to $25, V tanks for 30 sec. and calls, SB folds.

Turn: 9 ($70)

Hero checks, V bets $35 pretty quickly.

At this point I put him on total air. He can have a made hand because with the limp around he can have any two cards, but based on my reads, I felt he called the flop with the intention of bluffing on later streets if the board texture changed.

I call and intend to call a bet on the river as well as I believe my hand is good.

River: 8 ($140)

Hero checks, V hesitates for a few seconds and arbitrarily grabs a pile of chips that ends up being $125. His hands are shaking. Leaves himself around $45 behind.

Now I am second guessing my hand, there are four to a straight, a flush, and better 2 pairs out there now. Plus he bet more than I expected him to.

Hero?

Did the call on the turn make sense?

Sorry for the novel and thanks for bearing with me.
When to call down light? Quote
02-19-2014 , 05:56 PM
I would bet turn
When to call down light? Quote
02-19-2014 , 06:34 PM
Fold
When to call down light? Quote
02-19-2014 , 06:47 PM
Need more information. Against a normal 1/2 non spew opponent this is a clear fold. Against a tricky thinking player, it is a closer call. In the previous hands where you observed him bluffing:

1. What was his bet sizing? Half pot? Pot? Over bet?
2. Was he deliberate with his betting or did he just grab chips like this time?
3. Did you observe hand shaking before? (this is a tough tell and depending on the villain can mean complete air, monster, or I forgot to take my heart pill).
4. When he has the goods, what is his bet sizing? If it is significantly different from his bluff bet sizing, that is your strongest tell.

With the available information I go with a fold. Leaving 45 chips behind seems like a deliberate effort to keep it under a pot size bet in which case he likely wants a call. Plus after the 6 you flashed him he likely thinks you are putting him on tilt and it sounds like he is trying to play into that conception with the grabbing the pile, hand shaking, etc. If he was really on tilt I would not have expected him to hesitate before grabbing the pile of chips. The hesitation shows he thought about his bet and decided to go with the grab a stack approach.
When to call down light? Quote
02-19-2014 , 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wilson1560
Need more information. Against a normal 1/2 non spew opponent this is a clear fold. Against a tricky thinking player, it is a closer call. In the previous hands where you observed him bluffing:

1. What was his bet sizing? Half pot? Pot? Over bet?
2. Was he deliberate with his betting or did he just grab chips like this time?
3. Did you observe hand shaking before? (this is a tough tell and depending on the villain can mean complete air, monster, or I forgot to take my heart pill).
4. When he has the goods, what is his bet sizing? If it is significantly different from his bluff bet sizing, that is your strongest tell.

With the available information I go with a fold. Leaving 45 chips behind seems like a deliberate effort to keep it under a pot size bet in which case he likely wants a call. Plus after the 6 you flashed him he likely thinks you are putting him on tilt and it sounds like he is trying to play into that conception with the grabbing the pile, hand shaking, etc. If he was really on tilt I would not have expected him to hesitate before grabbing the pile of chips. The hesitation shows he thought about his bet and decided to go with the grab a stack approach.
Thanks for your input:

1. When he bluffed it was a strong check raise on the turn. He bet close to pot as he did here.
2. He tanked for quite a while on his bluff, similar to the way he behaved when he called my flop raise (this may have been what lead me to draw my conclusion about his hand being weak)
3. I had not observed his hand shaking before. I took the information as his range being polarized.
4. I had not seen him show down a nutted hand, or even show down at all actually.
When to call down light? Quote
02-19-2014 , 07:55 PM
Absent any other information, fold river. Both the hand shaking and "random" big bet are strong hand tells and there is a lot that beats you on river. I wouldn't discount bluffs entirely, he may be suffering from nerves if your read is right. He came along to steal the pot, got a very scary run out and felt committed to making his big bluff.

This is a bad board for bluffing though, lots of things got there. It would be very easy for you be in a position to make a crying call with a straight and after you check/call turn he can't discount you having a flush. The problem for you is that even with a read that he is bluffing, with a 4 card straight and higher cards on board he could be bluffing or value betting a hand that beats you but is afraid of the flush. I would need a very strong read that he is betting air here to call.
When to call down light? Quote
02-20-2014 , 01:47 PM
Results: I folded to the river bet. I likely would have called a bet of half pot. But his bet was strong, he was in position, and the board was super wet.

After the hand I asked if he had the flush as I got up to leave and he said "I didn't think you had the flush, I'll put it that way" and then I flipped the table over and was escorted out by security.

Spoiler:
jk
When to call down light? Quote
02-20-2014 , 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TextheZombie
Results: I folded to the river bet. I likely would have called a bet of half pot. But his bet was strong, he was in position, and the board was super wet.

After the hand I asked if he had the flush as I got up to leave and he said "I didn't think you had the flush, I'll put it that way" and then I flipped the table over and was escorted out by security.

Spoiler:
jk
Unless he actually showed you the hand you can pretty much discount whatever he says his hand was. Unless you guys are good friends or Villain is Pope Francis, pretty much expect the response to be a lie.
When to call down light? Quote
02-20-2014 , 08:45 PM
His comment here doesn't mean anything. It is likely true, but he could still have had you beat. If he is actually tricky, sometimes he will make the stupid over bet with a flush because it looks bluffy. This is actually a good move here, because the board is so ugly on river that your likely bluff catching or folding, so he might as well make a big bluffy looking bet with a flush.
When to call down light? Quote

      
m