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Old 09-21-2018, 01:00 PM   #1
Unikpkr
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What's your line to get max value from this monster?

3/5 spread, 500 max.

V1 is YAG, played with him once or twice before. Tight, tending towards aggressive, but in this session has been pretty straightforward. Big stack at the table. V2 Asian lady pro, but she normally plays the big game or the Omaha table and is probably just killing time here. Never played her before. She just sat down not too long. Hero is reasonable rec player, normally tight, a bit nitty but was trying to open up my game this session.


Hero (~$1200+) opens to $30 from MP with Td6d (Like I said, trying to open up my game, bigger than normal open for this game.)
V1 called, (~$1700) to my immediate left called.
Folded to V2 in BB (~$350), called.

Flop ($87): 7c 8d 9d
V2 checked.
Hero bets $35.
V1 raised to $100.
V2 shoved for $328 total.


Hero? Thoughts?
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Old 09-21-2018, 01:35 PM   #2
Garick
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

Pre is spew, but you know that.

Why such a small c-bet? This board shouldn't hit your range very well, so against good Vs you should be able to get action with larger bets.

AP, obvious shove is obvious.
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Old 09-21-2018, 01:36 PM   #3
ImAllInNow
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

I mean, we're all gonna disagree with preflop, but I think you get that. You shouldn't change your raise size based on what hand you're holding either, only based on number of limpers and your position (IP or OOP).

As played preflop, I would flat call the flop. We don't really have to worry about someone hitting a flush as much as we would with, say, JTo. I think we want to keep the other player in and get some value from them on the turn and river.
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Old 09-21-2018, 02:03 PM   #4
Javanewt
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

I'd go ahead and shove. Make him think you are trying to protect AA or something like that. If he folds, so be it. Lots of turn cards kill action for you or him.
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Old 09-21-2018, 02:25 PM   #5
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

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Originally Posted by ImAllInNow View Post
I mean, we're all gonna disagree with preflop, but I think you get that. You shouldn't change your raise size based on what hand you're holding either, only based on number of limpers and your position (IP or OOP).

As played preflop, I would flat call the flop. We don't really have to worry about someone hitting a flush as much as we would with, say, JTo. I think we want to keep the other player in and get some value from them on the turn and river.
I like this reasoning. Do we then lead every turn after flatting? I think shoving here is repping only sets and JT. I think we are folding out tons of value with a shove. In practice I tend to raise here as well, a shove seems too strong though. I probably make some lame $575 fake iso move and hope to get called so I can shove all turns. A flat seems guaranteed to get called though and then we can get much more value.
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Old 09-21-2018, 02:28 PM   #6
Unikpkr
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

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Originally Posted by Garick View Post
Why such a small c-bet? This board shouldn't hit your range very well, so against good Vs you should be able to get action with larger bets.
That's kinda my typical missed the flop cbet (although these 2 V's I don't think played with me enough to know). I was actually hoping to get raised. As I'd been opening pf a lot in last 20 minutes or so and V2 had started defending, c/r me once couple orbits ago.

What range do you guys put V1 on to decide whether to shove or flat? Since he raised, I was thinking 2p, set, or really strong draw (AJd+, ATo, T9s). But then I block a some of the draws. I was secretly hoping he hit a set.
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Old 09-21-2018, 02:34 PM   #7
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

I might be wrong here, but when V1 leads out for 100 into 87 pot (with two diamonds on board). I am putting on a J10, or possibly over pair or set.

Call the shove. If V1 Shoves over your call then Fold. V2 could easily have j10 with her shove as well.

Sucks to Fold but sometimes your monsters get beat.
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Old 09-21-2018, 02:51 PM   #8
Unikpkr
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

JT did cross my mind as possible too (forgot to put it in the range in previous reply). But I gotta admit folding never crossed my mind. Isn't it super mubsy to fold 2nd nut with flush outs?

Even if one of them did have JT, if I called V2's shove and V1 shoved on top (actually only 500 max on top, which would've been a cap), then I have to call 500 for 1250 pot at that point. If it was real NL and he really shoved all-in, that's still calling ~800 to win ~1450. Not quite enough to call if I knew for a fact I was behind, but I can't be behind a big % of the time given I have one of the ten., right?
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Old 09-21-2018, 02:53 PM   #9
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

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Originally Posted by dropnloads View Post
I might be wrong here, but when V1 leads out for 100 into 87 pot (with two diamonds on board). I am putting on a J10, or possibly over pair or set.

Call the shove. If V1 Shoves over your call then Fold. V2 could easily have j10 with her shove as well.

Sucks to Fold but sometimes your monsters get beat.
V1 didn't lead $100, hero led $35, V1 made a standard-ish raise to $100, then V2 shoved. V2 could absolutely have JT. But then given we have T6, it's extremely hard for V1 to also have JT. Plus, why would V1 want to shove the nuts and fold us off the super strong hand we are repping? I'm never folding the second nuts here on the flop AP.
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:17 PM   #10
Unikpkr
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

You guys got me thinking too much and can't sleep. Went and ran some equity, assuming V2 had the nuts and range for V1.

Flop: 7c 8d 9d

Td6d: 37.01%
JT: 54.07%
22+, AJd+, JT, T9, AT, 67, 56, 78, 89: 8.92%


Did I put something in wrong? V1's equity seems oddly low.
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Old 09-21-2018, 03:23 PM   #11
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unikpkr View Post
You guys got me thinking too much and can't sleep. Went and ran some equity, assuming V2 had the nuts and range for V1.

Flop: 7c 8d 9d

Td6d: 37.01%
JT: 54.07%
22+, AJd+, JT, T9, AT, 67, 56, 78, 89: 8.92%


Did I put something in wrong? V1's equity seems oddly low.
I got the same equities
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:19 PM   #12
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

I shove OOP and flat IP.

If we flat, are we leading turn? I'm not saying flat is wrong BTW.
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:36 PM   #13
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What's your line to get max value from this monster?

Flat the 3 bet to see what V1 does.
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:52 PM   #14
tmo1120
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

I think I like a flat here, he could end up jamming on you with sets or 56s; if he has a 10 with an OESD you'll block some of his outs with your flush draw, the times the other V has you beat you can potentially win a big side pot to make some money
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Old 09-21-2018, 05:59 PM   #15
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

all-in

Quote:
Originally Posted by ImAllInNow View Post
You shouldn't change your raise size based on what hand you're holding either, only based on number of limpers and your position (IP or OOP).
i don't agree with that.
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Old 09-21-2018, 06:49 PM   #16
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What's your line to get max value from this monster?

Regardless of what you do it's gonna look super strong.

With that being said, I'm not keen on living a IP V 4:1 to call to hit whatever they need to beat me. Your hand can't improve, it's raise to $800

And pre is terrible . S3G are literally trash from MP except for like AT/A5 because you have high card SDV and can make the nuts with Broadway or flush

Last edited by johnny_on_the_spot; 09-21-2018 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:21 PM   #17
ImAllInNow
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

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i don't agree with that.
Elaborate.
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:46 PM   #18
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

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Your hand can't improve, it's raise to $800
Ummm... He has a straight flush draw...
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:50 PM   #19
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

Quote:
Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
I like this reasoning. Do we then lead every turn after flatting?
Yeah I'd lead like 1/3rd of your remaining stack pretty much any turn other than a T.

Make him think you have two pair or something so he'll continue with a draw or a worse made hand.
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:14 PM   #20
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

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Originally Posted by ImAllInNow View Post
Ummm... He has a straight flush draw...
ok, so 4% of the time he improves. basically his hand rarely improves.
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Old 09-21-2018, 10:38 PM   #21
Garick
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

You don't think a regular flush is an improvement?
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Old 09-22-2018, 12:50 AM   #22
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

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Originally Posted by Garick View Post
Pre is spew, but you know that.

Why such a small c-bet? This board shouldn't hit your range very well, so against good Vs you should be able to get action with larger bets.

AP, obvious shove is obvious.
Is V1 seriously calling 1100 more with anything less than JT? He won't get odds to call off with a FD and probably not even with a set.
Imo, flat the 300 and hope V1 reshoves with 2pair+. Or at the very least keep his range wide as possible when we have the board this crushed.

Agree with c-betting bigger.
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Old 09-22-2018, 08:15 AM   #23
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

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You don't think a regular flush is an improvement?


Yes and no. A lot of times when you get multiple raisers in a pot postflop someone has a big FD and someone has a made hand. It's just statistically much easier than both players having made hands.

So if the V who is deep with us has the FD, they should be paying. If they have a made hand, we want to get money while we have a boatload of equity
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Old 09-22-2018, 10:21 AM   #24
Garick
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

Well, yes. This is exactly why I advocate shoving. Having V fold a bigger FD is an awesome result, and him calling with it is pretty good too. Flatting seems to just be begging for a card to kill our hand or our action with a bunch of money behind.

That said, our FD does give us outs against the current nuts.
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Old 09-22-2018, 10:40 PM   #25
Unikpkr
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Re: What's your line to get max value from this monster?

I went with the max. $500 on top option. Unfortunately V1 folded. Said he had 2 pairs, which really would've been the best cards for him to call with (best for me). Turn came 2d, V2 didn't show.

I guess since diamond came on the turn, I would've been able to go too big and get a call on the turn anyway. If I just called flop, then would only have got more if V1 shoved on top.

What I'm trying to understand is, if the equity above is correct, why should I be afraid of V1 having flush draw? Even if he did, the overall equity for his range is only less than 10%. Or there's something I'm misunderstanding here?
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