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Old 06-21-2014, 03:25 AM   #1
coreyd
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What should i have done?

1/3

Hero $850 has table covered. image super TAG, will barrel occasionally but only against players that i think have a fold button, aways barrel with equity though.

V early 20s, he thinks he's better than what he actually is. Have stacked him multiple times on previous occasions. Can get very out of line.

EP opens to 15, v calls, hero calls in SB with 66xx.

FLOP (48) 8 4 2r

I'm going to be ahead here more often than not and alot of turn cards will give me the second best hand if it ends up getting checked around.
I lead for 35, EP folds, v flats with about 70 behind.

TURN (118) 10x

I check, v checks.

RIVER (118) Ax

I check, v bets 45...

Question is, can i find a turn bet in this situation? what can he possibly have flatted on such a dry board for a large amount of his stack.

I tank for a couple of minutes and i know his range contains alot of bluffs and at this point i can only beat a bluff, i make a horrible call and he tables AQo.
Should i ever bet the turn though because if i get a call im almost always behind and drawing to two outs.

I took my $600 in profits and left immediately after this hand.
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Old 06-21-2014, 03:29 AM   #2
ArsenalGunners2
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I'm shoving turn everytime vs short stack in this situation if I decide to bet flop on this board. Feel like a good amount of villians will call it off with AQ or AK on turn here. If you aren't Betting turn here after leading flop. you should really just check fold flop imo, what card are you hoping for.

As played river is an easy fold. He is basically never value bet bluffing in this spot unless he is ******ed. I also don't see many hands he can even get to this river with that you can beat once he bets $45
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Old 06-21-2014, 03:43 AM   #3
coreyd
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Re: What should i have done?

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Originally Posted by ArsenalGunners2 View Post
I'm shoving turn everytime vs short stack in this situation if I decide to bet flop on this board. Feel like a good amount of villians will call it off with AQ or AK on turn here. If you aren't Betting turn here after leading flop. you should really just check fold flop imo, what card are you hoping for.

As played river is an easy fold. He is basically never value bet bluffing in this spot unless he is ******ed. I also don't see many hands he can even get to this river with that you can beat once he bets $45
Yeah i'm disgusted with my play, should have shoved turn and/or folded river. i beat nothing.

I thought at the time though that with him flatting the flop i'm already behind and i have a little showdown value. But the river call was horrible, it was a 2am **** IT im going home after this anyway call. I played this very bad. But thank you
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Old 06-21-2014, 07:59 AM   #4
tom frost
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Re: What should i have done?

Shove turn, if he had the Ten then unlucky.
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Old 06-21-2014, 10:00 AM   #5
au4all
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Re: What should i have done?

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Originally Posted by coreyd View Post
Question is, can i find a turn bet in this situation? what can he possibly have flatted on such a dry board for a large amount of his stack.
If you're going to check the turn, and call the river, he made a profitable call on the flop with 6 outs twice. He's going to win this pot 23.939% of the time.

He needs to win a $146 (35/.23939) dollar pot to break-even and he won 163 (118 + 45) dollars.
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Old 06-21-2014, 10:37 AM   #6
IceWater
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Re: What should i have done?

I don't know if I'd bet the flop often, but since you did I would deffinately bet this turn. There are several better hands in his range that will likely fold to a second barrel. Most eights and 77 ( if they called the flop) would likely fold. I wouldn't think hes calling the flop bet with just over cards all that often, but on the occasion he does they will fold to the second barrel as well. Some Vs may even still have some wheel draws in their range on this turn, and a bet would be good for that too. Only hands you have to fear are sets and 8 10. Maybe 42s. I think a turn bet has enough fold equity to be profitable. Combined with the rare occasions he has 3 5s and calls with worse, and the 5% of the time you redraw out on his better hands.

Also checking the last two streets could look very weak to some Vs and cause them to bluff you off the pot later if he does end up with just over cards or some worse hand that he changes into a bluff.
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Old 06-25-2014, 02:32 PM   #7
Dashy
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Re: What should i have done?

I think the way you played the hand, you got yourself into an awkward spot because you were unable to navigate your way through the hand. When deciding whether or not to play a pot pre-flop, you need to make a plan. With a hand like 66, you should first ask yourself what you want from the hand.
1)Do you think that your post-flop edge is high enough to win the pot on majority of flops?
2)Do you want to enter the pot with the intention of set-mining. (in this case it's a question of whether you think you're getting good pot/implied odds on a call.
3) Or you might feel that 66 isn't worth your time.

If you choose route 1, then your pre-flop call is a mistake. Your post-flop edge is going to decrease in a 3-way pot, so it would make sense to isolate the pre-flop opener with a 3-bet and play a bigger pot HeadsUp with a weaker opponent (if you feel he IS a weaker opponent). If you think the initial raisor is unlikely to have improved on an 8 high flop, then just go with your read and don't be afraid to snap him off if he decides to 4-bet you pre. Your flop bet is fine, but before you put the bet out, ask yourself how you're going to react to a raise, and what you'll do if you get called. If you get called think about how many turn cards are likely to come out that improve your opponent's range. If you don't think there are many, then you should be firing a second barrel on almost every turn. If you think there are many, then maybe ask yourself if betting this flop is really the best action to take.

If you choose route 2, then your flop bet doesn't make sense. You missed the flop, so just hope that your opponents check through and allow you to see a free turn.

If you choose route 3, then your pre-flop call is bad and you should just be throwing it in the muck. (I'm not saying that this is a fold, I'm just saying that if in the moment you felt that it wasn't worth your time, you shouldn't hesitate to muck it. That might be the nittier option but it's not a huge mistake to muck it if you feel that you're unlikely to win it post-flop if unimproved)

The point is, you should make a plan before entering the pot, and shouldn't deviate from that plan unless something weird happens which dictates a different course of action. Having an 8-high flop isn't a good enough reason (imo) to change your plan. You'll be faced with much easier decisions and be able to fine-tune your game if you just make a plan. And it's important to stick with that plan. Deviating from plan A, to Plan B, to Plan C is just going to get you lost in a hand.

Last edited by Dashy; 06-25-2014 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 06-25-2014, 02:41 PM   #8
Study Ace
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Re: What should i have done?

why are you calling 15$ with 66 when V only has 105$ behind...

was EP player much deeper?
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Old 06-25-2014, 03:47 PM   #9
OSUTexan
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Re: What should i have done?

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Originally Posted by Study Ace View Post
why are you calling 15$ with 66 when V only has 105$ behind...

was EP player much deeper?
+1....should've been folding unless EP raiser had at least $375.

As played, by not firing turn we should be folding to any bet on river from V....ch/c is horrible in this situation, but don't think you need too many people to tell you that. On a side note, if V had an 8x, overpair, or set...he's getting it all-in on the flop nearly every time with $70 behind. You should be fairly comfortable putting him all-in on the turn.
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Old 06-25-2014, 04:10 PM   #10
Mr_Doomed
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Re: What should i have done?

Don't show the results. As played I think you should always be committing yourself by the turn. Once you check you are giving up on the hand and shouldn't be calling river. So effective stack size was only 120 vs villan? When you lead flop you need to have a plan for what happens when the short stack calls.
I'm going to assume villan 3 bets 1010+ preflop so you are actually doing well vs a range of 22-99 and random broadway cards. Put villian to a decision for his stack. Seems pretty badly played by him though to flat flop for 33% of his stack.
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Old 06-25-2014, 04:31 PM   #11
spikeraw22
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Re: What should i have done?

grunch:
preflop- what was EP raiser's stack? If he was shallow then it's a fold. If not you can set mine assuming he's the type that will pay off with a good hand.

flop- your donk bet makes no sense at all. What was your purpose? You fold out most air, which is all you beat, and you make it so you have to put in another bet to win when they do call. Total spew IMO.

turn- Now you're just hoping to God you can get a showdown. Check.

river- about the worst river ever and even if he is bluffing, it's probably with the best hand. Not getting nearly good enough odds to call.

What I'm really interested in is your plan for this hand, because it seems to me that you were just clicking buttons with no rhyme or reason.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:49 PM   #12
jesse123
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Re: What should i have done?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
grunch:
preflop- what was EP raiser's stack? If he was shallow then it's a fold.
Yup, no sense in calling pf raises with small pps if Vs stacks aren't deep enough. I'd want to plan on winning at least $120 pot if a 6 hits.
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Old 06-25-2014, 09:48 PM   #13
Octavian
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Re: What should i have done?

Check and call all the way to the river. That's the best and the most profitable play in this situation.
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Old 06-26-2014, 12:30 AM   #14
coreyd
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Quote:
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Check and call all the way to the river. That's the best and the most profitable play in this situation.
Don't think so
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Old 06-26-2014, 12:30 AM   #15
coreyd
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Quote:
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Yup, no sense in calling pf raises with small pps if Vs stacks aren't deep enough. I'd want to plan on winning at least $120 pot if a 6 hits.
EP was $500 effective
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Old 06-26-2014, 12:36 AM   #16
spikeraw22
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Re: What should i have done?

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EP was $500 effective
I can get behind the PF call then, but that makes post flop that much worse. DUCY?
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Old 06-26-2014, 01:11 AM   #17
Mark L
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Re: What should i have done?

Grunch-

This is really just a question of if you are balancing this flop bet well enough and what villain thinks about this.
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