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What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read.

03-19-2015 , 11:26 AM
1-2 NLHE at Naples Ft. Myers dog track. I bought in for 200 and currently have around 240 and average stack is probably around 150. Villain in question has about 650 or so. I most likely have a tight passive image at the table as I have been pretty card dead and my speculative hands haven't panned out so I've been folding post flop a bunch too.
The villain is an older guy alternating between betting the dogs amd playing cards. The first or second hand I sat down to he limps UTG with 82hh and then calls a small raise and re-raise and flops two pair and gets paid on all streets by a guy with KK. I have seen him raise pre with AA, AK, AQ and JJ. He seems to show up with the goods when he raises. However, I have seen him call down 1/2 psb chasing and then hitting runner runner flush draws and stacking fools. I honestly don't know what to think of him.
Anyway, folded to me in MP and I have KQcc. I raise to 7 which was standard size. Villain on my left and the BB call. Flop Ks 10h 3d. Checked to me and I bet 18. Villain calls and BB calls. Turn is 8 ( I forget suit) BB checks. I check because I really don't know where I was at with Villain ( I was sure if no A came on the river I was good against BB). What should I have done here? Thoughts and criticism are welcome as that's how I will learn to get better!
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 11:29 AM
Forgot to mention BB has about 120 or so.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 11:38 AM
Bet the turn. The 8 doesn't complete any draws and really doesn't change much. From your read, he would have raised pre with AK. Go from there.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 11:41 AM
Gotta bet that turn - fire out another 1/2 pot sized bet. The check makes the river play more difficult in my opinion.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 11:52 AM
I say you should have checked back the flop. The board isn't flush-y and most high-card hands have only gutshots to go with their 1 overcard.

Checking the flop may get you two good streets of value from Kx hands and Tx hands that think they are good after the flop checked through and the turn is a brick.

Also, if you're beat on the flop, you're WAAAAY beat, and you'll most definitely get check-raised on the turn. Betting the flop means you pay twice as much to find out the guy hit a set of 3's.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 11:59 AM
Bet/fold ~$50 on the turn. That 8 is a total blank. Villain enjoys overpaying for his draws, so you should adjust by c-betting less against him and value-betting more against him. This is classic, straight value.

Last edited by sierradave; 03-19-2015 at 12:02 PM. Reason: wrote "flop" where I meant "turn." Need more coffee.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontworkhere
I say you should have checked back the flop. The board isn't flush-y and most high-card hands have only gutshots to go with their 1 overcard.

Checking the flop may get you two good streets of value from Kx hands and Tx hands that think they are good after the flop checked through and the turn is a brick.

Also, if you're beat on the flop, you're WAAAAY beat, and you'll most definitely get check-raised on the turn. Betting the flop means you pay twice as much to find out the guy hit a set of 3's.
Wait, seriously? Why would we give a free card to straight draws and two pair draws against players who don't mind overpaying to chase runner-runner flushes? Kx and Tx hands will call you on the flop and potentially the turn anyway.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:09 PM
NEVER checking the flop. (Idontworkhere, you do realize V2 is behind us yet to act? Not that it changes my betting the flop.)
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierradave
Wait, seriously? Why would we give a free card to straight draws and two pair draws against players who don't mind overpaying to chase runner-runner flushes? Kx and Tx hands will call you on the flop and potentially the turn anyway.
Well if you're going to rely so heavily on the OP's read, I guess I can see your point. But I'd want to have some more evidence that this villain will actually call/call/call any backdoor draw before I label him a mega-station.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:12 PM
I don't think I'm ever checking this flop against two opponents after raising pre -- I almost don't care who they are.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:15 PM
a set or two pair hand will go for a check raise on or before the turn. By checking the flop, you lose one bet folding your one-pair hand. By betting the flop and getting check raised on the turn, you lose two.

A Kx or Tx hand will likely pay off two streets, but not three. Checking the flop through allows you to bet turn and bet river quite profitably. Betting flop and turn leaves you on the river to either 1) Make a decision against a villain who leads 2) make a big bet and get called by better more often than you get called by worse 3) Get check raised and wonder why you just lost 3/4 of your stack on a one-pair/good kicker hand.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:21 PM
Checking flop and betting turn and river looks like a monster. If they are not calling the flop, they are not calling the turn unless they improve. Also, a flop bet looks like a c-bet, which could be with anything, so they are more likely to call that lighter.

You are seriously scared of getting check/raised on the turn and that is why you check the flop? What? Check/raised by whom? BB? V acts after hero.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:22 PM
Also, a line of bet/check/bet will fold out alot of Tx combos. But a line of check/bet/bet will get you paid by more Tx combos.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
Checking flop and betting turn and river looks like a monster. If they are not calling the flop, they are not calling the turn unless they improve. Also, a flop bet looks like a c-bet, so they are more likely to call that lighter.

You are seriously scared of getting check/raised on the turn and that is why you check the flop? What? Check/raised by whom? BB? V acts after hero.
No, I'm not scared of getting check raised, I'm just saying I would lose less when it happens. By checking the flop I'm trying to get better 2-street value from Kx and Tx hands, which is my most likely competition.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:24 PM
In what universe does betting the turn, from the button, after two players checked to you TWICE, look like a monster?
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:25 PM
You act as if you play poker scared to lose instead of trying to get value.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontworkhere
In what universe does betting the turn, from the button, after two players checked to you TWICE, look like a monster?
I've said it twice, I'll say it again: V acts after hero. He has not checked on the turn, and he did not check on the flop before hero bet!!! Hero is MP.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
You act as if you play poker scared to lose instead of trying to get value.
Quite the opposite. I'm not scared to give a free card to a hand that's drawing to three outs if it means I'm going to get more value from a wider range of weaker hands.

Betting this flop to "protect" your hand is the definition of playing scared.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontworkhere
Well if you're going to rely so heavily on the OP's read, I guess I can see your point. But I'd want to have some more evidence that this villain will actually call/call/call any backdoor draw before I label him a mega-station.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idontworkhere
a set or two pair hand will go for a check raise on or before the turn. By checking the flop, you lose one bet folding your one-pair hand. By betting the flop and getting check raised on the turn, you lose two.
You clearly have never played at this casino.

OP should be bet/bet/betting in this hand, and expect to see an absurd hand that happens to beat H ~30% of the time.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:29 PM
We are betting the flop for pure value.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:31 PM
Seems I messed up the order of things. I stand corrected. Apologies all around.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:32 PM
Still though. I still think I check the flop. Against this V, I think KQ is good enough to check/call all 3 streets, or bet turn bet river against anything that checks back the flop.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:34 PM
Checking the flop is lolbad. Bet flop for value, bet turn for value, bet most rivers for thin value. Folding to raise/check raise on turn or river. Easy game.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:40 PM
A player that calls down light and only raises really good hands? Never heard of such a thing.

Seriously, you gave us a perfect read. Why are you so confused? Bet/Fold all 3 streets and print money all day. EZ PZ.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote
03-19-2015 , 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by W2's = +LifeEV
Checking the flop is lolbad. Bet flop for value, bet turn for value, bet most rivers for thin value. Folding to raise/check raise on turn or river. Easy game.
And get called by what all three times?? That's value so thin I can't even see it.

If there was a flush draw on board, or if it was Q T 3 on the flop, I agree with you. But you've got AJ, AQ, AT, KJ, K9, Kx, Tx, Q9, and J9 drawing super thin. The only hand with real equity is QJ and you're still way ahead of that. QJ may also call a turn bet thinking his Q or J are also outs.

WE're probably splitting hairs but I really think my approach is going to get you two fat streets of value and yours gets three thin ones. Meh, good luck to you.
What to do now...raised KQ suited and run into a guy I can't honestly read. Quote

      
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