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Old 08-17-2018, 01:22 PM   #1
grotto1
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What to do with JJ

Game 1-3
Effective stack 250 V. I had this covered.
Villain is new to me and I suspect new to poker.
V UTG +2
H CO

V opens to 20. The average open at this table was $15 so 20 is not much different.
Fold to H and I decided to call with red JJ. I did not see an upside in raising and I put the V on a range of 77+; AK; AQs; KQs. Even A9s+

The flop comes 9 high very dry. V bets $100 in a $40 pot.
I thought that a set or big over pairs will not do that since it doesn’t make sense. Over cards might, trying to get the pot right there.

So what should H do?
Call; Raise; maybe fold?
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Old 08-17-2018, 01:25 PM   #2
DaYu
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Re: What to do with JJ

We need more info on Villain. Is this the first pot he's raised? If so, I'd fold.

Even when he's bluffing with overcards, we only have 75% equity. It's a marginal spot.
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Old 08-17-2018, 01:28 PM   #3
grotto1
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Re: What to do with JJ

It was maybe the second but it was only the second orbit at this table. Forgot to mention the V is a 40s asian female.
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Old 08-17-2018, 01:39 PM   #4
shady24
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Re: What to do with JJ

Sounds like a scared QQ or KK bet. She's very scared of AK "getting there..... limited info, only invested 20 bucks, I'd probably fold til I had a better read on her.
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It was maybe the second but it was only the second orbit at this table. Forgot to mention the V is a 40s asian female.
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Old 08-17-2018, 01:42 PM   #5
gobbledygeek
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Re: What to do with JJ

I give EP raises quite a lot of respect, and perhaps even more for noobish players (who while they could overvalue some hands I think at the same time are probably playing more passively overall with large parts of their range); with no other dead money in the pot, I'm pretty happy just flatting preflop.

IME, noobish players tend to more feel entitled to win pots with their big QQ+ hands, and will overbet both preflop and postflop to protect them for fear of people sucking out on them. I think they are less likely to go crazy with UI AK. So I fold the flop.

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Old 08-17-2018, 01:42 PM   #6
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Re: What to do with JJ

Can you give examples why you suspect she's new to poker? Do you remember the flop? Those bets are usually bets for protection from these types of players, maybe protecting TT from over cards. Usually big bets from bad players = huge hands.
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Old 08-17-2018, 01:54 PM   #7
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Re: What to do with JJ

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Originally Posted by DaYu View Post
We need more info on Villain. Is this the first pot he's raised? If so, I'd fold.

Even when he's bluffing with overcards, we only have 75% equity. It's a marginal spot.
Wat. If we have 75% equity, we should be putting the deed to our mortgage in the middle.

I would have 3! this pre, especially given the range you assign to V (which has mostly overcards to our pair).

In a vacuum, this is probably a fold versus an unknown. However, I would say something like "I guess my pair of xx is no good...will you show?" when folding so you can maybe get a better line on what V would 2.5x pot with on a dry flop. Some people can't help but show you they bluffed you out with overs and that is good info to have.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:11 PM   #8
gobbledygeek
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Re: What to do with JJ

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Originally Posted by shorn7 View Post
However, I would say something like "I guess my pair of xx is no good...will you show?" when folding so you can maybe get a better line on what V would 2.5x pot with on a dry flop. Some people can't help but show you they bluffed you out with overs and that is good info to have.
I'd probably attempt to induce a show without having to give up info on what I had. Sometimes a simple tap of the table and "nice bluff" will get this done.

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Old 08-17-2018, 03:20 PM   #9
Alexandar
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Re: What to do with JJ

Cant agree more with the table talk but ^ im not sure saying "I guess my pair of Jacks is no good" classifies as giving away our hand
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Old 08-17-2018, 10:49 PM   #10
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Re: What to do with JJ

If you really believe she had the range you state, you should have 3 bet with JJ pf. The flop would be a LOL call. The only reason you aren't raising on the flop is only hands that beat you would will call. Everything else will fold.
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Old 08-17-2018, 11:08 PM   #11
crsseyed
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Re: What to do with JJ

Villain dependent.

If V is new to poker, I read this bet as a strong hand, she's scared (you're behind). I fold

Tho 75% equity is huge.....

Fold but fold quietly. The info you get by talking to villain won't replace the info you give out to the other players at the table by talking about your hand....
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Old 08-18-2018, 01:04 AM   #12
weltis
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Re: What to do with JJ

Could go either way. If you call flop you should probably be prepared to call most non Q-A turns because not it would be 130 into a pot of 240.

I don't think spots like this come up frequent enough and will effect your win rate in the long term.
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Old 08-18-2018, 02:53 AM   #13
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Re: What to do with JJ

Snap fold.
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Old 08-18-2018, 04:25 AM   #14
branch0095
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Re: What to do with JJ

Against an unknown that you believe is new to the game, I'd tend to give them credit for a big hand until you see something to convince you otherwise. I'd just fold facing the 2.5x pot bet OTF.

As for PF, I'm actually fine with flatting JJ with position against this type of V. I hate the idea of 3!/folding with these stack sizes, but I'd also expect to be behind when we call off her 4! shove.

Last edited by branch0095; 08-18-2018 at 04:30 AM.
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Old 08-19-2018, 09:45 AM   #15
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Re: What to do with JJ

I don’t like the recent trend where OP decides the flop is an unimportant piece of information.

Anyways, I like the flat pre. And then I would just dump it on the flop. I mean it somewhat depends on what the flop is, but you didn’t include that information.


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Old 08-19-2018, 11:29 AM   #16
grotto1
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Re: What to do with JJ

The flop was 479 rainbow
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Old 08-19-2018, 12:12 PM   #17
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Re: What to do with JJ

We have the top of our range, and villain seems inexperienced enough to consider A9s or 88 as the virtual nuts. And even with these odds we don't need that many combo's that we beat. So i'm definitely not folding.
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Old 08-19-2018, 05:17 PM   #18
sixsevenoff
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Re: What to do with JJ

Why are you not 3! pre flop? Seriously, I'm 3! every single time in this position.

Now you're in a sticky situation. I wish I knew exactly what the board was. This is a weird scenario but I suppose I would jam after villain bets the flop.
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Old 08-19-2018, 06:56 PM   #19
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Re: What to do with JJ

3-bet pre. As played, get it in. You are so far ahead of a donkey's range here.
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Old 08-19-2018, 07:49 PM   #20
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Re: What to do with JJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandar View Post
Cant agree more with the table talk but ^ im not sure saying "I guess my pair of Jacks is no good" classifies as giving away our hand
Whatever you have, you just told the table you would fold jacks here....
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:31 AM   #21
DaYu
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Re: What to do with JJ

People... I'm saying we have 75% equity vs AK.

WE DO NOT HAVE 75% EQUITY VS. VILLAIN'S RANGE.

We're 8.5% vs. an overpair.

My point is that we're never way ahead, and we're often WAY behind.
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Old 08-22-2018, 10:37 AM   #22
Man of Means
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Re: What to do with JJ

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaYu View Post
People... I'm saying we have 75% equity vs AK.
My point is that we're never way ahead, and we're often WAY behind.
I'd consider 75% to be way ahead. AA vs. JTs preflop is like 78%...

Regardless, the important info here is the large betsize. Villain probably has an overpair and it's probably better than ours. AK, if they don't know what to do, usually makes a series of increasingly desperate bets.
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Old 08-22-2018, 12:24 PM   #23
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Re: What to do with JJ

calling pre + only continuing with sets isn't great at this stack depth.
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Old 08-22-2018, 01:08 PM   #24
gobbledygeek
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Re: What to do with JJ

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Originally Posted by Tuma View Post
calling pre + only continuing with sets isn't great at this stack depth.
Yeah, but we're not 100% setmining here. Sometimes we're looking to get an indication of whether we're good on the flop (noobs will often simply check UI AK here). Other times the noob's hand will see horrendous A high flop for their KK- and maybe we get a couple of free cards. Other times our flat will bring in a lot of other callers and we will be mostly end up ~setmining (which we're ok with getting better immediate odds and IO).

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Old 08-22-2018, 02:46 PM   #25
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Re: What to do with JJ

She´s new to poker, likely doesn´t know what to do, and besides sets this is the top of our range.
never folding here, calling and calling basically every non A turn if she shoves, shoving if she checks.

don´t see that big of a problem here, if we dump one buy in, be it. players who size it that way give it back.

Imo most people here play pretty money scared and are looking not exactly for reasons to fold, but for reasons to reduce variance, and use not very logical arguments.

IMO, a logical argument would be:

a) she is unknown
b) we suspect she is a poker novice and doesn´t know what she´s doing
c) we are close to the top of our range.

I´m never folding here.


sidenote: novice players tend to be pretty honest with their table talk, you might get a read from her pretty easily.
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