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Old 06-12-2015, 04:44 PM   #1
WRH
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What do I have to do to get paid off more?

I'm a $1/$3 player, games vary but generally loose. I'm getting really frustrated watching huge pots get pushed around the table when I'm not in the hand. When I'm in the hand I can't seem to build a pot worth the effort.

For a non-specific typical example: I raise $15-$20 pre-flop and get 3-4 callers (pot $60-80). I flop strong (Top two, set). Checks to me. I bet 1/2 pot. Everyone folds.

-Or-

Same pre-flop. I flop strong again and I try to slow-play. No one bites. I bet the turn and everyone folds.

Conversely, when I miss and fire a C-bet of the same size, it incites action (C/R, stacks get in).

What gives? Has anyone dealt with this? Is it an image problem ($1/$3 so I doubt anyone is paying attention)? I'm tight but I'm not a total nit, and I see nittier players get their share of big pots. Am I really unlucky enough that no one is getting a second-best hand against me every time?
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:01 PM   #2
Garick
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

Way too general a question to really be able to answer, but my suspicion is that this is just a sample size coincidence. If you're getting the calls PF, it's not an image problem unless they see you as super-nit and are just trying to crack your aces. If you are getting a mix of folds and big action post it is most likely that its coincidence, though you might want to have a friend rail you and check for tells.

Most 1/3 players can't pick up on tells, or don't know what to do with them when they do, so it's likely coincidence.
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Old 06-12-2015, 05:12 PM   #3
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What do I have to do to get paid off more?

If what you say is in fact true and not just your perception that when you have it they fold and when you don't they call. You are either a) running bad (ie no one has a hand that can give you action) or b) you give off significant tells. Physical or bet sizing.

More likely IMO is that some of this is your perception.

I suggest posting some detailed hand histories here in the forum. Ones where you flop hard and ones where you Whiff and attempt to Cbet bluff.

Are you cbetting good board textures etc.

If you have a poker friend it could be worth while having him play at your table and share observations of your physical play. But truthfully most villains are paying more attention to their hand than your physical demeanor. But it can be helpful.
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Old 06-12-2015, 06:16 PM   #4
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

Thanks for the replies. I realize this is pretty general but it's a general problem for me. Different villains, different nights, same results. I feel like I have to flop set over set in order to get action. Obviously that doesn't happen enough to be profitable.

I'm fairly certain it's not a physical tell or bet size tell. Physically I'm aware of what tells are out there and avoid making them. Bet sizes are based on number of limpers pre and pot size post (1/2 pot usually, maybe a little more on a draw-heavy board).

I'm sure I have leaks in my game but this one is really bothering me. I don't know what I'm doing that's keeping me from getting in big pots.
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Old 06-12-2015, 06:41 PM   #5
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

It is a little bit of both. If you are playing TAG, you're mostly playing good hands. When you hit the flop with 2 pair or a set (most likely top set), it is hard for anyone to have much of a hand to compete against you. Any bet is going to cause of fold on any street. At the same time when you wiff, somebody has something that isn't going to fold if it is going 4 ways or more. I suspect that you're not at the point where you can figure out what are good flops to cbet and which ones are bad. Might be a good place to start. I also note you didn't mention TP and OP hands. Those are going to be different situations.

In summary, the closer the second best hand is to your hand, the more you're going to get paid.
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Old 06-12-2015, 07:13 PM   #6
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

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Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
It is a little bit of both. If you are playing TAG, you're mostly playing good hands. When you hit the flop with 2 pair or a set (most likely top set), it is hard for anyone to have much of a hand to compete against you. Any bet is going to cause of fold on any street. At the same time when you wiff, somebody has something that isn't going to fold if it is going 4 ways or more. I suspect that you're not at the point where you can figure out what are good flops to cbet and which ones are bad. Might be a good place to start. I also note you didn't mention TP and OP hands. Those are going to be different situations.

In summary, the closer the second best hand is to your hand, the more you're going to get paid.
I feel like I have decent idea of which boards to bet (K-8-2r or A-9-4r, i.e. one high card that's likely to hit my raising range).

If I whiff a flop that's likely to hit limp-calling hands (T-8-7 with two to a flush) I'm generally checking if checked to.

If I flop a flush draw with over cards like A-Ks I'm usually going to bet it unless there's a really tricky player that likes to put me to the test with a c/r, in which case I'll usually take the free card.

With top pair and over pair hands, I'm going betting and evaluating on the next street (is a draw likely? Does this V raise when he's ahead or does he hand me rope? ). I have a pretty good sense of when I'm behind with an OP (against a set). Though to be honest, I haven't gotten to the river much lately.
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Old 06-12-2015, 07:43 PM   #7
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

To me this just sounds like a sample size problem like others have said. You aren't supposed to get paid off every time you have hands. Obviously you will flop gin and others flop trash. You still will have to bet -changing your bet sizes according to flop textures but it will depend.
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Old 06-12-2015, 08:34 PM   #8
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

It is most likely a sizing issue that even the fish are reading strength. You prbably flop a set and bet POT on flop turn river which scares off heads that could pay you off. Whereas you whiff and bet 1/2 pot flop and 1/2 pot turn.
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Old 06-12-2015, 08:53 PM   #9
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

In general don't slowplay. Usually that makes it harder to build pots. This actually could be part of the problem because it does sound like you are slowplaying too much. The villains I play against play looser on the flop than they do on the turn.

Are you c-betting regularly against 3-4 opponents?
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Old 06-12-2015, 09:21 PM   #10
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

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Originally Posted by ohmyrage View Post
It is most likely a sizing issue that even the fish are reading strength. You prbably flop a set and bet POT on flop turn river which scares off heads that could pay you off. Whereas you whiff and bet 1/2 pot flop and 1/2 pot turn.
I'm betting 1/2 pot either way. I keep my bet sizes pretty consistent for this reason (in order to disguise hand strength).
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Old 06-12-2015, 09:24 PM   #11
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

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Originally Posted by Steve00007 View Post
In general don't slowplay. Usually that makes it harder to build pots. This actually could be part of the problem because it does sound like you are slowplaying too much. The villains I play against play looser on the flop than they do on the turn.

Are you c-betting regularly against 3-4 opponents?
I rarely slow-play. I will only do it if there is a bluff-happy player and I have hand that's unlikely to be outdrawn, so very rarely.

I will C-bet into a few opponents on the right boards.
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:29 PM   #12
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

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Originally Posted by WRH View Post
I rarely slow-play. I will only do it if there is a bluff-happy player and I have hand that's unlikely to be outdrawn, so very rarely.
Then what was the point of writing this?

Quote:
Same pre-flop. I flop strong again and I try to slow-play. No one bites. I bet the turn and everyone folds.
If you rarely slowplay, then you would only be in those situations a very small number of times, and as a result you're not in a position to say things like "These guys don't give me action when I slowplay."

Quote:
I will C-bet into a few opponents on the right boards.
I'm not sure what to think of this without knowing what kind of boards you're talking about. I rarely c-bet into 3 or more opponents when I miss. I wonder if you're doing it too much. A lot of my c-betting when I miss is only done against 1 opponent.

This kind of feels like a bad beat thread to me. Ed Miller has complained recently that people tell him "These guys never pay me off" and "These guys always snap off my bluffs." And Ed Miller is correct when he says that's nonsense. Opponents at 1-2 NL aren't clairvoyant.

You probably are experiencing some bad luck. A year ago it seemed like I was never getting paid off when I had a hand and brought out the big bets. I don't feel that way anymore. I think the biggest thing that changed is my luck is much better.
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:34 PM   #13
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

If you hit top two pair, its more unlikely anyone else has much of a piece
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Old 06-12-2015, 11:58 PM   #14
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

I think a big part of this is selective memory. What you're saying can't really be true. Everyone else is winning big pots, folding when you have something, calling when you don't. It is also a sample size problem. Patience will help. Other than that, sure it's very possible you have leaks, and you should post some hands... but really, what you're describing sounds pretty normal and you can have long stretches where it feels like you're going nowhere.
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Old 06-13-2015, 05:19 AM   #15
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

As a tight player, many of the huge pots I win tend to have another player having initiative in the hand. Maybe you are being too aggressive preflop.
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Old 06-13-2015, 08:49 AM   #16
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

Are you fit or fold on the flop? If you only follow up when you have a big hand, people will recognize that

Masta--
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Old 06-13-2015, 09:27 AM   #17
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianNit View Post
As a tight player, many of the huge pots I win tend to have another player having initiative in the hand. Maybe you are being too aggressive preflop.
This is probably true.

I play very tight at the 1/2 games I play but only when facing a decent sized raise or when I'm OOP.

When I raise in EP I expect most of the table to know I have a strong hand. I don't expect to win stacks without coolering someone. The purpose of these raises is just to make the most of the decent hands when OOP by trying to get it headsup and win a small pot to help me stop bleeding away chips via the blinds.

All my big pots that I can remember have occurred when I've been in later positions (hijack+). Many of them I am not the preflop aggressor or if I am I have raised small vs limpers to build a pot (gives away hand strength but I don't do it when observant players are in the pot).
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:16 AM   #18
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

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Originally Posted by AsianNit View Post
As a tight player, many of the huge pots I win tend to have another player having initiative in the hand. Maybe you are being too aggressive preflop.
This is exactly what I was thinking.

tl/dr: Basically limp and call IP with wide speculative ranges to hit more monsters in multiway pots and help yourself blend in with the loose/bad players.



I play preflop very tight at the 1/2 games I play but only when facing a decent sized raise or when I'm in EP.

When I raise in EP I expect most of the table to know I have a strong hand. I don't expect to win stacks without coolering someone when im raising from these positions. The purpose of these raises is just to make the most of the decent hands when OOP by trying to get it headsup and win a small pot to help me stem the loss of chips via the blinds.

All my big pots that I can remember have occurred when I've been in later positions (hijack+). Many of them I am not the preflop aggressor or if I am I have raised small vs limpers to build a pot (gives away hand strength but I don't do it when observant players are in the pot).

You have to embrace limping behind and calling small raises behind in LP with speculative hands. These multiway pots are where you can more easily get paid and where, IMO, the profit at loose and bad low stakes games is most reliably found.

Now, you have to be careful, you aren't looking to flop top pair and get paid multiple streets of value in a six way pot. You are going to throw a lot of those mid strength hands away or play them very cautiously. You are looking to flop the nuts or close to it and stack someone or, ideally, multiple players. This won't happen often but you win so much it keeps you in chips for a very long time!

Basically your preflop hand selection and flop continuing range could be hamstringing your ability to hit the kind of hands in the right situations to get paid.

I'll give you my basic strategy for loose bad tables and you can compare and contrast it with yours to see if you are too tight or too aggressive preflop.

EP (utg, utg+1, utg+2, utg+3):
Open raise to 5bb-8bb: 77+ AQ+ AQs-ATs KQs-KTs, QJs QTs JTs, and occasionally mid suited connectors (T9s-76s J9s-86s).

Isolate limpers 5bb-8bb +1bb per limper: 99+ AQ+ ATs+ KQs

Limp behind limpers if a big raise behind me is unlikely: 88-55 QJs-76s KJs-86s

Limp behind limpers if a big raise behind me is likely: 99+ AQ+ ATs+ KQs and I will fold, flat the raise or 3bet depending on my hand and the situation.


LP (HJ, CO, BTN):

Open raise to 3bb-5bb: 22+ AT+ A2s+ KJ+ K2s+ QJ JT T9 98 87s-32s QTs-42s Q9s J8s

Isolate limpers 5bb-8bb +1bb per limper: 99+ ATo+

Limp behind limpers if big raise behind is unlikely: 88-55 AKs-A2s KQ-32 KJ-86 KT-Q9

Limp behind limpers if a big raise behind or in blinds is likely: 55+ AJ+ ATs KQ KTs+ QJs-98s QTs-T8s


Blinds:
I play tight. I only completing the SB vs limpers with 88-55 and isolating 99+ AQ+ ATs+KQs. If the table folds to LP regularly and LP steal wide then you aren't in a loose bad game and need to change your whole strategy including adding proper blinds defence.


Facing a raise preflop:


Big raise (4bb+) no limpers or callers and I'm in any position behind the opener: I just get out of the way unless villain is very lose. Vs a tight player I will just flat 77+ AK AQs KQs-98s IP and see if I can win a mid sized pot with my 1-pair hands, force a fold by semibluffing draws or take advantage of x/f tendancies by floating preflop or on flop. Obviously I also want to stack him with monsters but this will very rarely happen.

Big raise 1+ callers/limpers I'm in EP: Now I will be very cautious and pretty much 3bet only with TT+ AK intending to only gii preflop with AA unless I think villain can 4bet wider than KK+ (most can't). If I think my call will trigger a lot of other callers but 3bets are unlikely and effective stacks with raiser are 100bb+ I will set mine JJ-55 and sometimes flat AK AQs AJs KQs if I think players behind me won't get fancy and aggro postflop too often.

Big raise 1+ callers/limpers I'm in LP: Now, if effective stacks are 100bb+ (ideally 150bb+) I will start to call quite wide: Pretty much any hand that has a reasonable chance of making the nuts. 55+ A2s+ KQs-32s KJs-64s KTs-96s. In addition I will 3bet QQ+ and AKo, again only intending gii preflop with AA unless villain can 4bet > KK+

Small raise <4bb: I tend to treat these similar to limps if the raiser is loose but if he is tight I treat them like a big raise. The smaller the raise, the looser the raiser, the more callers and the later my position the wider I'm going to call right up to my LP limp behind range.


You'll notice I'm really opening and isolating pretty tight except for opening HJ, CO and BTN and actually BTN is very tight because I'm just not expecting to have tons of fold equity vs the blinds or much need to bother stealing when there are so many limped pots to profit from. I'm also limping behind and calling behind progressively wider as I get later in position. I'm taking a lot of cheap passive lines preflop which accomplishes two things:

1) I blend in better with the looser, more gambling players.

2) I get many, cheaper opportunities to hit the board hard in multiway pots.

It is very important to realise I have a totally different mindset on multiway flops as compared to headsup flops. I cbet-bluff, bet my draws, bet pot, x/r and generally use my tight raising image to take down as many headsup pots as I can. However, when it is multiway I tighten up massively and take more passive lines until I think someone has a strong enough hand to play for atacks vs my monster.

Multiway I throw away a lot of one-pair hands and I only continue draws to the nuts and TPTK+ unless flop is very inexpensive compared to the pot and effective stacks. If it is seriously multi way and there is heavy action I am completely happy throwing away TPTK and overpairs. I find, if I observe my opponents carefully, i can get a pretty good idea of how heated the action on any given flop is going to get before I act. I've frequently check/folded TPTK+ or folded to a small donk bet having observed interest in wet boards from later position players and then watched as people gii vs flopped monsters. Good tip: Watch the players behind you watching the flop. You don't need to watch the players infront so much since they have to act before you anyway.

Basically multiway I'm trying to avoid losing chips on mid strength hands while looking to trap loose players postflop with flopped or turned monsters when they have mid strength hands. If they consider 2nd pair good that's great I will stack them frequently. If they only think 2-pair+ is good then it is lucky for me there are 3+ of them in the pot otherwise id have to wait all week to stack anyone.
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Old 06-13-2015, 12:44 PM   #19
WRH
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
This is exactly what I was thinking.

tl/dr: Basically limp and call IP with wide speculative ranges to hit more monsters in multiway pots and help yourself blend in with the loose/bad players.



I play preflop very tight at the 1/2 games I play but only when facing a decent sized raise or when I'm in EP.

When I raise in EP I expect most of the table to know I have a strong hand. I don't expect to win stacks without coolering someone when im raising from these positions. The purpose of these raises is just to make the most of the decent hands when OOP by trying to get it headsup and win a small pot to help me stem the loss of chips via the blinds.

All my big pots that I can remember have occurred when I've been in later positions (hijack+). Many of them I am not the preflop aggressor or if I am I have raised small vs limpers to build a pot (gives away hand strength but I don't do it when observant players are in the pot).

You have to embrace limping behind and calling small raises behind in LP with speculative hands. These multiway pots are where you can more easily get paid and where, IMO, the profit at loose and bad low stakes games is most reliably found.

Now, you have to be careful, you aren't looking to flop top pair and get paid multiple streets of value in a six way pot. You are going to throw a lot of those mid strength hands away or play them very cautiously. You are looking to flop the nuts or close to it and stack someone or, ideally, multiple players. This won't happen often but you win so much it keeps you in chips for a very long time!

Basically your preflop hand selection and flop continuing range could be hamstringing your ability to hit the kind of hands in the right situations to get paid.

I'll give you my basic strategy for loose bad tables and you can compare and contrast it with yours to see if you are too tight or too aggressive preflop.

EP (utg, utg+1, utg+2, utg+3):
Open raise to 5bb-8bb: 77+ AQ+ AQs-ATs KQs-KTs, QJs QTs JTs, and occasionally mid suited connectors (T9s-76s J9s-86s).

Isolate limpers 5bb-8bb +1bb per limper: 99+ AQ+ ATs+ KQs

Limp behind limpers if a big raise behind me is unlikely: 88-55 QJs-76s KJs-86s

Limp behind limpers if a big raise behind me is likely: 99+ AQ+ ATs+ KQs and I will fold, flat the raise or 3bet depending on my hand and the situation.


LP (HJ, CO, BTN):

Open raise to 3bb-5bb: 22+ AT+ A2s+ KJ+ K2s+ QJ JT T9 98 87s-32s QTs-42s Q9s J8s

Isolate limpers 5bb-8bb +1bb per limper: 99+ ATo+

Limp behind limpers if big raise behind is unlikely: 88-55 AKs-A2s KQ-32 KJ-86 KT-Q9

Limp behind limpers if a big raise behind or in blinds is likely: 55+ AJ+ ATs KQ KTs+ QJs-98s QTs-T8s


Blinds:
I play tight. I only completing the SB vs limpers with 88-55 and isolating 99+ AQ+ ATs+KQs. If the table folds to LP regularly and LP steal wide then you aren't in a loose bad game and need to change your whole strategy including adding proper blinds defence.


Facing a raise preflop:


Big raise (4bb+) no limpers or callers and I'm in any position behind the opener: I just get out of the way unless villain is very lose. Vs a tight player I will just flat 77+ AK AQs KQs-98s IP and see if I can win a mid sized pot with my 1-pair hands, force a fold by semibluffing draws or take advantage of x/f tendancies by floating preflop or on flop. Obviously I also want to stack him with monsters but this will very rarely happen.

Big raise 1+ callers/limpers I'm in EP: Now I will be very cautious and pretty much 3bet only with TT+ AK intending to only gii preflop with AA unless I think villain can 4bet wider than KK+ (most can't). If I think my call will trigger a lot of other callers but 3bets are unlikely and effective stacks with raiser are 100bb+ I will set mine JJ-55 and sometimes flat AK AQs AJs KQs if I think players behind me won't get fancy and aggro postflop too often.

Big raise 1+ callers/limpers I'm in LP: Now, if effective stacks are 100bb+ (ideally 150bb+) I will start to call quite wide: Pretty much any hand that has a reasonable chance of making the nuts. 55+ A2s+ KQs-32s KJs-64s KTs-96s. In addition I will 3bet QQ+ and AKo, again only intending gii preflop with AA unless villain can 4bet > KK+

Small raise <4bb: I tend to treat these similar to limps if the raiser is loose but if he is tight I treat them like a big raise. The smaller the raise, the looser the raiser, the more callers and the later my position the wider I'm going to call right up to my LP limp behind range.


You'll notice I'm really opening and isolating pretty tight except for opening HJ, CO and BTN and actually BTN is very tight because I'm just not expecting to have tons of fold equity vs the blinds or much need to bother stealing when there are so many limped pots to profit from. I'm also limping behind and calling behind progressively wider as I get later in position. I'm taking a lot of cheap passive lines preflop which accomplishes two things:

1) I blend in better with the looser, more gambling players.

2) I get many, cheaper opportunities to hit the board hard in multiway pots.

It is very important to realise I have a totally different mindset on multiway flops as compared to headsup flops. I cbet-bluff, bet my draws, bet pot, x/r and generally use my tight raising image to take down as many headsup pots as I can. However, when it is multiway I tighten up massively and take more passive lines until I think someone has a strong enough hand to play for atacks vs my monster.

Multiway I throw away a lot of one-pair hands and I only continue draws to the nuts and TPTK+ unless flop is very inexpensive compared to the pot and effective stacks. If it is seriously multi way and there is heavy action I am completely happy throwing away TPTK and overpairs. I find, if I observe my opponents carefully, i can get a pretty good idea of how heated the action on any given flop is going to get before I act. I've frequently check/folded TPTK+ or folded to a small donk bet having observed interest in wet boards from later position players and then watched as people gii vs flopped monsters. Good tip: Watch the players behind you watching the flop. You don't need to watch the players infront so much since they have to act before you anyway.

Basically multiway I'm trying to avoid losing chips on mid strength hands while looking to trap loose players postflop with flopped or turned monsters when they have mid strength hands. If they consider 2nd pair good that's great I will stack them frequently. If they only think 2-pair+ is good then it is lucky for me there are 3+ of them in the pot otherwise id have to wait all week to stack anyone.
Thank you for this post, you've obviously put a good chunk of time and thought into it. It's given me some things to think about.
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Old 06-13-2015, 02:31 PM   #20
Ragequit99
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Re: What do I have to do to get paid off more?

No worries, just remember it is a strategy specifically for loose tables where the standard of play is bad. It works best at tables that are passive preflop but one or more villains are liable to get "creative" postflop taking various aggressive lines with a wide range. Then your limping and calling gets good implied odds.

For tables with a mix of weak-tight players who fold too much and loose passive calling stations you can generally open and isolate a bit wider and simultaneously cbet/barrel (vs the weak-tights) and v-bet much wider (vs the stations).

Tables with aggressive preflop players behind you may require you to open tighter than I describe above in earliest early-position.

All table types position is your friend though

Basically don't tie yourself to just one strategy - even the ABC TAG strategy. Look for where you can loosen up cheaply and safely (IP preflop and on flop). This will do wonders for your image and your ability to get paid.
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