^ Non sequitur. In the AA example, the difference in EV between the +EV play and the ++EV play is negligible; in fact almost non-existent. "Humans have two eyes because binocular vision is better," is a valid argument, even if you find someone born with one eye.

^ No, not really. But if we're talking about fantasy island, OK.

I saw a drunk guy do that once in a 3way pot. Evidently, there would've been no way for him to understand any type of explanation about his equity Vs. pot odds after he folded and let another player with a smaller FD river his flush and win the huge pot.

In a 5-way pot like OP's, not many players will fold NFD. And the ones who do are an exception to the rule and shouldn't factor in too much in our decision making.

Need more info on villain. If you won't expect to have any fold equity in a spot like this then I would fold pre.

Now that you're here and not sure, if it's true that you have very little fold equity, I would flat flop, hoping for at least 1 of two things to happen

1. You get some overcallers or a raise and can GII with more money in the pot.

2. Otherwise you're getting it in on any basically any turn and hoping that if you miss, villain will believe you more and maybe fold. Or possibly an A or K may scare villain away. Or someone with a dominating draw that might call a shove on the flop will fold now that there's only 1 card to come. In general this line looks less like a draw and more like a made hand and you will get more credit if a villain understands a few things.

But you probably have more fold equity than you think, and pushing it hard on the flop is probably better. Also even if you lose you'll be more likely to get paid off with your made hands when they come up and you take a similar line, if anyone is paying attention.

EDIT: I read through the rest of the thread and think what KKingDavid posted is most important. It's a marginal spot so if it will upset you to lose this pot then just fold, it's fine, you'll get the money elsewhere and not risk getting tilted.

uh huh. okay. please let me know when we can play sometime.

The rest of your comments ITT seem rational by comparison.

LOL "Shove and pick up the hundo."

Do you even realize that the same goes for ATC in this spot? In other words, all you are saying is "Bet enough so that everyone else folds." That advice works for any cards in any situation, so it must be really, really good advice; pure gold.

The OP indicated the lead better likes to GII, and in fact shoved OTF with KT unimproved, and we have no info on the other 3 players.

Do you even know the chances someone behind us has pocket diamonds? That might be part of objective reality that a player might want to include in this decision.

This is absolutely not the same. Shoving with this hand hoping to pick up the $100 with likely 40-50% equity as a backup plan is not the same at shoving ATC.

Shoving here is as close to a free roll in poker as you are going to get. You either win $100 the percentage of times that everyone folds or flip for $600

Thank you all so much for taking the time to respond. As it turned out, she did have Ad 10d. I will definitely change my ways...

(copied from my original grunch of duplicate thread)

I'm not even sure I call 54s on the Button after a string of callers to the raise due to it's poor RIO (it makes a crapload of good second best hands); the callers would probably have to be droolers for me to do so. But in EP, super easy fold preflop, imo.

This is one of the problems of calling preflop where we are going to be OOP to a large part of the field. If we were in LP after a cbet and callers, this would probably be a simple shove with huge dead money and our equity. But here, I don't think the choice is as simple. Sounds like we have no FE against cbetter (where they recently shoved a flop with K high?) so I'd probably just flat and hope weaker hands behind me pad the pot for my draw.

ETA: But as someone else mentioned, it's not a terrific spot, especially if a couple of non-******s call behind us (where all of a sudden our perceived outs start shrinking up pretty fast). Which is why we shouldn't be in this hand to begin with, especially in EP.

GcluelessNLnoobG

this is a classic case of getting valuable/interesting info on a villain and making a bad adjustment. often times at these stakes when someone makes a highly questionable, overly loose/aggro play it puts the whole table on tilt. all the droolers and rec players come out of the woodwork calling big bets with any hand that beats K hi or has a draw to beat K hi and putting villain on a bluff every hand no matter what. the fact that vill bluffed with KTo does not make it profitable to now play atc preflop hoping to bink, or to assume that every bet is now a bluff. that's 0 level thinking, and it's what all the losers in the game are doing; hard to beat the game when you're playing the same strategy as the dead money.

I tend to agree that 54s is a fold in this spot pre, but if you're going to play it you should prob be 3! PF. if you know vill likes to put out big bets/raises with marginal to bad holdings, then the best way to capitalize is to raise and force folds/awful calls.

as played, it's really hard to judge whether raising flop > calling or folding. in general, that's a sign that the optimal play is a mixed strategy: sometimes raising, sometimes calling, sometimes folding. I don't think you can make an argument that one is clearly correct or incorrect.

the problem with raising is that we only rep sets and flush draws (though I guess we can have a few 86s and Ad6d) and prob only have FE against villain's air. we can still get cold-called behind us (though we should have a lot more FE against the field when raising) and raising commits us to the pot with plenty of RIO.

some advantages of calling: we get correct immediate odds against villain's value range; pot size remains manageable even if we pick up callers behind; with an overbet and call in front, it's unlikely that the players behind are going to raise with anything other than 2p+, so we pay the minimum (given action) for the maximum amount of information; while the potential of calling an overbet and getting stuck in the middle and having to fold to more flop action really really sucks, we will be able to make an extremely confident fold in that eventuality (which I think is a very unlikely outcome).

the advantages of raising and folding have been well-explained thus far ITT, so I won't elaborate there.

For these reasons, I would say I'm overweight calling, and my general strategy for this spot would be something like:
Fold 12.5% (1/8 of the time)
Raise 33.3% (1/3 of the time)
Call 54.2% (13/24 or slightly more than half)

exactly. it's a very straight forward hand. he seems to be purposely neglecting the logic. He is probably one of those dudes who just likes to argue/troll