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Old 12-03-2017, 03:15 PM   #1
Vandelay
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Weird spot versus a maniac fish

Wild action at a $2-$5 table
I think the open raise sizing is a good indicator for how loose the games are.
I adjusted my open raise sizing up to $30 and +$5 per limper to avoid family pots.

Hero($565 deep) has a winning TAG image.
I had not been getting out of line this session.
I donkbet/folded(tanked) the flop earlier versus villain 1 so he knows I'm capable of laying down a hand.

Villain 1(covers everyone):
Loose fish who is very aggressive postflop.
*I saw him 3bet and getting called in 2 spots and then double barrel JJ on Q52 8.
*I saw him cbet/call the flop on J-9-X, call blank turn and lead blank river and lose to QQ.
He only showed a 9, and he did not have a flush draw to go with it, not even on the turn.
This guy just bets for no reason and bluffs a ton.
Some players shut down their bluffs once they get caught, but not this guy.

Villain 2($500 deep):
I have seen him Limp/call $30 preflop with Q5o UTG.
Loose/passive old man.
Calling station.

Villain 3($500 deep):
Guy in his 30's who is loose/passive and makes hero calls.
Calling station.


7 handed

Hero limps UTG with 6c6h.

Villain 1 raises to $15 from HJ and I'd say he raises a minimum of 25% of his hands in this spot.
Varies between $15-$25 so he is extremely unlikely to be strong here.

Villain 2 3bets to $30 from SB.
He always just limps in or cold calls, so I'm putting him on JJ+ or AK here.

Villain 3 Flats $30 from the big blind.
He is extremely loose and will have a wide range here.

Hero does not think Villain 1 is strong due to preflop sizing and he doesn't play a 4bet bluffing game so I decided to flat with 6h6c.

Villain 1 flats as well.


$120

9h5d2c

V2 checks. This looks a lot like AK.
V3 checks.
I now think I should have the best hand a lot, but I check.

V1 quickly bets $50.
V2 and V3 both calls and I really think I have the best hand against V2 and V3, and also very often against V1.
I'm not loving life, but I'm getting such a good price so I call.

$320 9c

Check to V1 again who bets $85
V2 folds, and V3 calls.
I still think my hand should be good here a fair amount of the time.
V1 can have any two and V3 is never folding a 5 or a gutshot.
I really doubt V3 would check a 9 on the flop, so I'm not at all worried about him having trips.
I call again.

Now the pot has ballooned up to $575 and the river is Js(9h5d2c 9c Js)
V3 open folds the river and I check
V1 puts me all in for my remaining $400....
????
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Old 12-03-2017, 03:23 PM   #2
sauhund
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

Whatever TAG means these days, Im pretty sure you aint playing it...
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Old 12-03-2017, 03:25 PM   #3
Narloxon
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

Maybe even fold preflop from EP with a maniac IP...But im not really sure...
Definitly fold flop. You will get better opportunities to get the maniacs money imho.

As played i would lean forward calling. I mean this your catching-chance you played forward to when u called flop and turn isnt it?! If he hits his miracle jack, rebuy to have him covered...

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sauhund View Post
Whatever TAG means these days, Im pretty sure you aint playing it...
LEL. so much dis.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:18 PM   #4
QuadJ
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

You should never get to the river with your hand. Having done that it's a pure live read but I would favor fold. Your pair is low enough he has bluffs in his range that beat you.

I don't mind preflop with the maniac. Not happy about the reraise but you are deep enough to fish for a set. On the flop just fold, maniac is bluffing a lot but everything that isn't a bluff beats you and his random over cards can easily beat you by river. When 2 other villains call it's just another reason to bail. Neither has shown much strength but you have almost none. OOP with a low pair you are set mining and when you miss just get out cheaply. One of the secrets to beating a maniac is not getting into these super marginal situations.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:30 PM   #5
MIB211
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

Flop is a clear fold once there are two callers. Maybe you could float heads up, but 4-way there's almost no chance you're good, and even if you are the only good run outs have a 6 on turn or river.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:46 PM   #6
Eholeing
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

Hilarious hand history

Fold every street
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:46 PM   #7
browni3141
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

Pre-flop is questionable since V1 can still 4-bet. If you don't think he 4-bets too aggressively I'd set-mine, too.

Flop is a very clear fold. Even if you're somehow ahead their collective equity against you is great. If you do have the best hand you can get bluffed later on because you won't be able to call turn for the same reasons you shouldn't call flop. There's no reason to think you're good here anyway.

Call the turn I guess against a maniac betting and a station calling and getting great pot odds.

River is a question of how fast you should call. I would pretend you have a decision on the river, think for maybe 20 seconds and then call.

Also, I'm curious about the history hand. Donkbet/folding against this guy sounds like giving him free money.
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Old 12-03-2017, 05:10 PM   #8
snowman
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

Quote:
Originally Posted by sauhund View Post
Whatever TAG means these days, Im pretty sure you aint playing it...
+1
fold pre
fold post
fold turn
fold river
fold
fold
fold
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Old 12-03-2017, 05:24 PM   #9
browni3141
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

Why are you folding river against a button clicking monkey who probably triple barrels almost his entire flopping range?

What's the worst hand you're calling? TT at least must be a call since he almost definitely has TT-66 in his range.
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:53 PM   #10
Vandelay
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

I guess I should start playing these pockets pairs more conservative postflop and just let guys bluff me.

How about betting the flop here?
A small bet can actually look a lot like a set, and if I get V1 to fold I got position for the rest of the hand.


You might find this one hard to believe given the action I posted:

I was new at the table and I donkbet(first to act) $35 into $60 4way with 22 on A52hhh.
V1 was the PFR and next to act, and he raised it up to 95.
I was unaware that he was a maniac at this point, so I ended up folding.
I didn't think AK would raise this board and he might not even raise A5s from early position, so I struggled to justify calling.
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Old 12-03-2017, 10:15 PM   #11
QuadJ
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

If you never get bluffed then your calling to much. Multiway when you miss your set it's just very unlikely you have the best hand or that it will hold up till river.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandelay View Post
I was new at the table and I donkbet(first to act) $35 into $60 4way with 22 on A52hhh.
V1 was the PFR and next to act, and he raised it up to 95.
I was unaware that he was a maniac at this point, so I ended up folding.
I didn't think AK would raise this board and he might not even raise A5s from early position, so I struggled to justify calling.
Calling with a set here is much easier then the 66 hand. You are often facing draw and even if your not you have a reasonable chance of beating a flopped flush.

Quote:
Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
What's the worst hand you're calling? TT at least must be a call since he almost definitely has TT-66 in his range.
Unless villain is a total maniac idiot what is he betting on turn/river? His flop bet got multiple calls and the top card paired, even a maniac is usually slowing down without a 9 or better. You shouldn't be calling turn unless you think villain is barreling air enough to call most rivers. Having gotten to river TT is call, 66 is a toss up.
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Old 12-03-2017, 10:47 PM   #12
browni3141
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ View Post
Unless villain is a total maniac idiot what is he betting on turn/river? His flop bet got multiple calls and the top card paired, even a maniac is usually slowing down without a 9 or better. You shouldn't be calling turn unless you think villain is barreling air enough to call most rivers. Having gotten to river TT is call, 66 is a toss up.
But OP did describe villain as a total maniac idiot who bluffs a ton seemingly without reason and doesn't shut down.

I would not have gotten to the river with 66 either, but mostly due to the fact that there were other villains in the pot who could easily have us drawing to 2 outs. Once I get to the river on a relatively bricky runout I'm not folding.
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Old 12-04-2017, 02:02 PM   #13
The Rumor
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

I'm not sure you could take a worse line here, as others have noted. If you can get to this river because V is betting so incredibly wide, there isn't much of a decision here. The real question you should be answering is why are you here?

The limon rule is in full effect on this hand.
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Old 12-04-2017, 02:47 PM   #14
fishstox94
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

The biggest thing that sticks out to me is, although you might be right (but you're probably not) there are just a ton of better spots to get your money in. Playing a huge multi way pot with mid pair is never ideal.
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:06 PM   #15
mikko
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

My favorite posts on 2+2. Include. I am playing Tag, by limping UTG.

From reading exactly 2 HH. I can tell you to stop playing small PP from ep. You are leaking massive amounts of money.

As for your ???

Call it off. Go with your gut. Post hand on 2 plus 2 and try to gain some value out from it.

However, you can easily fold best hand on flop after bet and 2 callers. 66 isn't gonna improve, and future streets are going to be very tough to navigate.

Turn: Laying to good of odds to fold. Now we are heads up.

River: Wish we would have folded flop now. Calling all day, because I got here and it is time to be a hero!!!!!

Pre is easiest fold ever, if you are gonna fold sets, and call multiple-way with underpairs.

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Old 12-04-2017, 08:30 PM   #16
Homey D. Clown
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

Yeah, I'd say pre is okay-ish, but not if you're gonna play your pairs like in these two HH's.

Flop is a clear fold.
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Old 12-04-2017, 09:15 PM   #17
reliv
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

Pre-flop is okay, but you should really have a plan.

Usually multiway 3b(lol) pots, you're going to have to just set mine with plans to fold OTF. You just don't have enough equity to make it to the river against 3 other players. Bet, call, call action is a snap fold. Perhaps a bet, fold, fold is a flop you could continue.

As played, hero call??? Just fold, find a better spot to ship your stack.

Further, I think your evaluation of V1 being a fish might be based on too small of a sample size. Donk betting into a LAG "fish" doesn't sound like TAG play either. Donk bets are very often going to be punished by a good player.
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Old 12-05-2017, 12:21 PM   #18
shorn7
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

Yeah I think you let your opinion of V's skew your thinking on this hand and you made some very thin calls because of it. Sounds like a really good game that if you tightened up (actually played TAG) you will get plenty of chances with real value hands to win a lot of $. Just be patient.
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Old 12-05-2017, 03:41 PM   #19
PFunkaliscious
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Re: Weird spot versus a maniac fish

pre is fine. with five of you to the flop, 4:1 direct odds to setmine for 5 BB is completely standard.

the key is V1's turn bet of 85 into a pot of 320. that looks really really weak. best play here would be to C/R to 400 and take down the pot right there. might as well rep the 9 since it is very obvious that V does not have it.

as with all of these thread where we are calling down maniacs superlight becuase we don't know where they are, it is super high variance. start incorporating live reads with your play. is V comfortable? are they talking? are they staring at one distinct point and not looking away from that? do they give off a weak smile?

as played, a crying call is better than a fold.
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