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Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain

11-24-2013 , 03:03 PM
Playing 2/5 Table started out fairly tight but has been getting more aggressive and bluffy as the evening crowd arrives. I've been playing all afternoon and have been down most of the day, after flopping king high flush in the BB and losing to a flopped nut flush.

V1: Tilted LAG. Doubled up hero two or three orbits ago when I flopped a set on a draw heavy board and we got it in on flop. Rebought to $1000 and lost a little since. Playing super LAG but doing OK at it when he sat down. Playing more then half of hands and overbet/shoving a lot since doubling up hero but not on total tilt, he still has a fold button when clearly losing. Has raised ever hand I have limped since he doubled me up, but I'm not sure if he is targeting me or not because he raises a lot anyway. He was usually the straddle when I was SB but the player in between was away this hand. $750 or so

V2: Loose gambler. Decent player post flop but too loose preflop and chases a bit too much post. Wins a big pot every so often but dithers it away calling raises preflop, stack has been up and down all day. Very good sense for when to pick off bluffs but can fold top pair when he is beat. $800

Hero: Hero has been playing TAG, not sure it matters to V1. Been playing with V2 most of day, V1 not so long. V2 has seen me raise with draws and barrel, but respects my generally tight play. V1 has not seen me bluff and the only big hand I've played since he arrived is the flopped set. $1500

EP limp
MP limp
V2 limps button
Hero SB with JJ, raises to $25
V1 BB raises to $100
Fold/fold
V2 calls on button

Hero?

I'm not really happy about it but I probably shove here if nobody else gets involved because I believe V1 has a good number of bluffs in his range that fold when I shove and a lot of two over card hands where I'm slightly ahead. V2 getting involved really threw me though. Obviously playing this out of the SB I can't flat, it is either shove or fold but I was really torn on which way to go.
Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Quote
11-24-2013 , 03:07 PM
Fwiw if villain is barrel happy and 3bets a polarized range flatting is not that terrible as you have sweet relative position and a 4bet from sb over represents your hand. What do you think V2s flatting range is otb to v1s 3bet? Also how wide do you think v1 5bshoves over your 4b?

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Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Quote
11-24-2013 , 04:43 PM
If he's as 3bet happy as you say then I just treat V2's money as a bonus and shove. You don't really like most flops. You really don't like them 3 ways so just get it in now instead leaving yourself open to making a bad decision on the flop.
Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Quote
11-24-2013 , 05:25 PM
Flat and call him down on every street unless board is super scary. If over cards come and V2 is calling or raising I'm folding.

I think shoving pre is pretty bad because we only get called by hands that beat us or are flipping. I'm not really a big fan of getting JJ in pre for 150bbs especially when V2 limp flatted. He might have limped with a big hand hoping V1 would raise and then just flat the raise trying to get you to come along.
Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Quote
11-24-2013 , 08:33 PM
V2's range here is the weird part. He was too loose but he wasn't stupid. V2 was good enough to realize that I'm never raising V1 light because V1 is probably never folding to my raise. He isn't flatting here for more then 10% of his stack light when V1 is likely to shove with any part of flop. The problem is that anything that I can put in his range to flat the reraise is most likely raising the first time.

AK/AQs/QQ-TT might figure to be too good to fold to V1's raise and flat to see what I do before committing, the bottom of that range seems very unlikely though and the AK are likely to call if it ends up in a 3 way shove. AA/KK potentially might have flatted after 2 limps if his plan was to trap V2's likely raise from the start.
Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Quote
11-24-2013 , 08:45 PM
I've really got to think that V2's range here is something like JTs (people love JTs...) AK, AQs, 88-TT and that's about it.
Nothing else makes sense really.

Limping the BTN with KK/AA? And then not re-popping it to some significant action when he will certainly get paid? Possible, but much less likely. Side note, sometimes smart people do weird things because they are feeling a bit lucky with that hand.

I think this could be a good spot with QQ to flat and check/ship over all flops that are Q high or lower over the likely cBet and get lots of money in the pot when we are likely way ahead as there's only a 35% chance that an overcard falls. But with JJ the chances go up so much more, and there's a 50% chance or so that an overcard falls.

Having said all that, I think that I would fold.
It's going to be really hard to
A) be ahead of both of their ranges (note we are certainly ahead of parts of either of their ranges at any point, but the more 88-TT that V1 or V2 has, the more QQ-AA the other has, and all that...)
B) know where we are in the hand playing from OOP the whole time
C) find any flop that we like that we can continue on
D) make money when all of these conditions are satisfied

It's just a pair.
Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Quote
11-24-2013 , 09:00 PM
shove
Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Quote
11-24-2013 , 09:01 PM
lol at fold
Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Quote
11-24-2013 , 09:12 PM
shipping is a pretty big bet but yeah I am just looking to get it in but I might go to like 325 trying to induce a ship
Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Quote
11-25-2013 , 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch
I think this could be a good spot with QQ to flat and check/ship over all flops that are Q high or lower over the likely cBet and get lots of money in the pot when we are likely way ahead as there's only a 35% chance that an overcard falls. But with JJ the chances go up so much more, and there's a 50% chance or so that an overcard falls.
This is more or less what I ended up thinking. With AK/QQ+ I could flat and check/shove any flop I liked. V1 is going to bet any board that helps him and some bluffs, and V1 will let me know where he is in hand after that. With JJ, playing OOP against two villains there are just too many flops I don't like. I didn't think shoving is good because one of the two is almost always getting it in here with a bigger pair or two over cards. JJ doesn't hold up well against that sort of range.

As it happened, the flop came down ace high, V1 checked, V2 bet and V1 folded. I would have to check that flop and fold to V2's bet, though it isn't sure I'm actually losing.
Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Quote
11-25-2013 , 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SABR42
lol at fold
This, folding here is lolbad. we are crushing their ranges.

IMO, with JJ, in the nut worst position, this is a must raise. Only question is the size.
Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Quote
11-25-2013 , 04:34 PM
$310/call vs. V1 prob fold if V2 ships.

Folding is pretty awful. V2 can be flatting all kinds of hands OTB because V1 is a "tilted LAG" and Hero is almost always completing the action with a call. So yeah 4bet is mandatory. Both V's ranges are wide open.
Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Quote
11-25-2013 , 04:35 PM
I'm actually agreeing with the ship suggestion the more I think about it from a bluffiness perspective.
Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Quote
11-25-2013 , 06:17 PM
You guys should save yourselves time and just say "what spike said."
Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Quote
11-25-2013 , 06:51 PM
Spike can suck my dick.

Well played OP. Some quality advice in this thread btw. Lol
Weird preflop situation with JJ and titled villain Quote

      
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