I'm currently disagreeing with how this hand should be played, but maybe I'm wrong.

Tight passive player ($207) opens UTG+1 to $6 in an 8 handed $1/$2 live cash. Folds around to Hero ($185) in BTN who holds AdJd, who calls.

Heads up to flop: AsQc6c

Pot:$15
UTG+1 bets $10
BTN calls

Turn: 10h

Pot:$35
UTG+1 bets $12
BTN calls

River: 5d

Pot:$59
UTG+1:$45
BTN (your move)

Fold bud

I also fold. Against some such players I'd be unhappy about calling the turn, and would fold to a larger bet.

3bet pre. It's basically a limp.

As played it's a fold, I guess.

He says 3b pre is not optimal because of the early position open and he's tight which I agree with.

If he had opened to 10+ I'd agree, but if someone opens to 6 they're basically never that strong. And if they do happen to have a monster, you can just fold to their 4bet. Also, if he calls, you are not obliged to go nuts post-flop.

Does anyone find a $12 turn bet weird on a draw heavy board considering its only 1/3 pot or should we interpret that as a pot control bet with AK, seeing as villian is passive? I would think a made hand worth value betting $45 on the river with would be the type of hand you'd want to protect a little more on the turn. That's why I would have called earlier.

But I now understand thinking about it more that any Ax hand worth raising early position pre with beats us, and he's not betting 3 streets with mid pocket pair so I guess he has fewer bluffs in his range than I thought.

The AJ flops well I think an AJo or KQo is a typical 3bet but AJs flops too well in that spot.

Fold. Not close for me.

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It seems very unlikely that a tight passive player is going to bet this river without a hand that beats you. Fold.

This is starting to be much more clear cut than I realized at first. I think I'm not understanding fully whats meant by tight passive because I can see myself folding to like an older white or asian female type in this scenario. But why would someone value bet 1/3 of the pot with 2 clubs on such a connected board even with 2 pair? I think most of the hands at river are aces up. Its just a confusing turn bet to me.

I guess there are a lot of river cards that beat 2 pair so pot control? Idk, that kinda makes sense.

Generally a fold on river. Depending on how ABC tight/passive villain is I could fold turn or even flop.

There are two oddities here that probably means something. The undersized open could be strong indicator villain has suited connector/low pair. If that is the case then preflop could be a raise or the hand may be a call down.

The small turn bet and large river bet probably means something also but hero doesn't know what. It could mean villain is bluffing turn but isn't willing to commit enough to it. It could mean two pair+ that doesn't want hero to fold and doesn't realize board is somewhat dangerous. Or it could mean villain doesn't pay enough attention to pot size and has very erratic bet sizing.

Grunch: Hand well played so far, now fold, assuming that this sizing pre is normal for this game (for most 1/2 games it isn't).

A TAP player doesn't triple barrel any TP we beat, we'd be calling to chop at best. I'd fold turn if it wasn't so small and I didn't think we had bluffing outs.

This.... unless of course the plan was to invite the blinds to tag along.
3 bet for me and its not even close

can you point to that excerpt?
I am amazed Little recommends flatting.
ive read some of his books passive play is not in his repertoire

Why are we 3betting a player whose range is like TT+, AK, AQ when we have AJ? That's at least how I range a tight passive UTG+1 raiser. The sizing is goofy and could indicate a wider range but imo the tight passive read overrides it.

Id like to know why OP thinks this is a "weird" scenario. Its the most obvious river fold ever. That is, if I didnt fold the turn vs this particular guy.

because those player types are exploitable
the alternate line is to fold to that menacing $6 pre flop raise

Folding is obv out of the question, idk what you mean on that one. Nobody is doubting those players are exploitable, but you aren't exploiting him by 3betting his tight range. We are behind that range. We would be better served flopping something or stealing the pot on good runouts. For that to happen we would like to represent middle and low cards, and we want higher SPR, which we can't do if we 3bet.

we underrep our hand by flatting.
what does a tight passive think when you just limp along.
what does a tight passive think when you 3 bet.....
we lose money when we call.
we win money being aggressive.
easy game this is raise or fold on the button.
my vote raise.
lets not use what happened on the flop to fog the play pre

1. Not really, our hand isn't good very good against his range. We rep it just right and we rep a lot of other cards too.
2. The pot was raised pre
3. That we have a big hand. It's one benefit of 3betting. Tight passive is likely to have a big hand himself.
4. That's incorrect and I explained in my first post why.
5. Not always the case, agrotards don't win money.
6. Call is a legitimate option, especially if there's a fish in the blinds.

Also lol at accusing me of being results oriented like I'm some newbie. That's a strawman argument and nothing in my posts suggested I want to call because of this flop.

not accusing you of anything.
just saying post flop is one set of analysis pre another
on this action we can agree to disagree
you vote flat and have your reasons
I vote 3 bet and have mine

I think it works to our advantage that we can 3bet them relatively cheap now and keep the SPR high enough that it won't be much of a factor unless we're gonna 3barrel all-in. I just don't believe that someone opening for $6 has that tight of a range, I just don't. And I'm confident they will be putting more money into the pot with hands that are either weaker than ours or that will be folded by them on a lot of flops or possibly turns. Obviously you do have to keep in mind that you have AJ here and not AA, so you might have to tread lightly if you are called. If you're unable to recognize these situations, then by all means just call and play a small pot.

Anyway, I don't think "tight and passive" players are necessarily huge nits who only play aces+. I consider most players tight and passive. They are mostly weak and both call and fold too much, and they don't bet or raise enough.

I don't know what the $6 raise means in this situation specifically, but in my experience people who do vary their opensizings raise bigger with their monster hands and smaller with their weaker, more speculative hands.

If I know for sure that A: this guy opens everything for 3x and B: this guy opens only TT+ and AK/AQ in EP, then I wouldn't 3bet him. But the information we're given is not nearly enough to go on and come to these sorts of conclusions.

I have to say, I've been reading a lot of threads lately where generic EP raisers are blatantly put on extremely nitty ranges, as if that's superstandard. Maybe that's how you all play or wanna play, but at my tables only a handful of guys are actually that tight in reality. Pre-flop, that is. Most players' opening ranges, even the tight ones', are pretty random. They look at their hand, see something they like at that particular moment and say to themselves: "Let's play this hand. You know what, I'm gonna raise myself this time, then I have the initiative, and initiative is a good thing because then you can cbet, people will fold and I will win the pot."

Yes, I'm obviously exaggerating, but I do think that random players are given a bit too much credit here in general, in terms of actually knowing what they're doing, let alone having actual thought-out ranges. I can't count the times I have seen someone who I hadn't even noticed at the table while he was sitting there for three hours suddenly open 33, A8o or Q9s, even from EP. Just because... Well, just because.

I agree with your post and will have to just admit we have different starting ranges for tight passive in this spot. If he was just tight, or just passive, that would have been enough for me to widen from TT+, AQ+ but tight and passive players are out there who have this kind of range.

I think it's so underrated to 3b EP openers, especially the ones you describe who do stuff just because they haven't played a hand in a while, or don't know their range is way too wide in EP.