Still something doesent add up with how you are presenting things Mike.

If you ranged him that strong that you didnt feel like you could limp/reraise him for value pre, then how can youre original ranging suddenly go out the window when villain piles money and want to stackoff post? I understand that we build uppon our preflop ranging when we get more information in postflop play, but i still feel this is a big contradiction in your reasoning.

If you thought hands like 77-1010 was in his range + alot of AQ/AK combos, then you could comfortably have limp/reraised pre for value against that kind of a range. It sure seemed like he outplayed you, got you to level yourself-when the reasons you had for not limp/reraising pre suddenly wasnt as valid anymore when you reached postflop play.

Again given how the hand played out I don't expect V to have 88-TT nearly as often as you do, so I guess that is the difference here (and I said that from the beginning so not just after he tabled KK).

As javi said, if Hero had taken a more normal line pre, then it is very likely we would never have been in this spot. That is something for ME to think about when deciding on non-standard lines, especially when we will be OOP with a likely one pair hand after the flop.

Nice suckout though. Run better sir...

+1

Shorn on his game here. With the flop bet, I'm okay assigning him mostly all overpairs with each about as likely as the others. After his turn bet, I think probability of 77-99 goes down (since we called a huge bet on flop), and TT+ goes up.

This is good.

I mean, to make a conclusion to what i am getting at:

I assume you didnt want to limp/reraise pre in order to avoid stacking off into QQ+ with 2 outs for your entire stack. Ironically enough, that was exactly what did happen at the turn with one card to come.

I guess it sounds like you were setmining with JJ then, in which case you can peel the flop one time and then fold turn.

I kinda was setmining preflop once I saw who raised, although I also have a chance to win a nice pot vs the fish if preflop raiser didnt happen to have anything and didnt Cbet.

It was villains bet sizing that changed my mind. And yes, he tricked me...confused me..outplayed me. Whatever we want to call it.

I kind of like Villains line. Even though he hadn't played a hand it appears he was paying attention. He also saw people stacking off with one pair no kicker. He finally woke up with a hand and got a good player and a fish in the pot. The board is super wet so he tears the breaks off the car and gets max value. He probably expected Hero to fold and was targeting fish but got bonus loot. If the table has shown it is over calling isn't sizing up the correct adjustment?

Villain isn't folding.

He folds AK and AQ a million times over and he even most likely folds TT-77. So I don't agree.

He's going to be getting 7.2:1 pot odds on a call. Whether it's correct or not people just don't fold hands that have a chance of winning with a card to come for those odds. AK/AQ are actually getting direct odds to call our turn shove against our specific hand.

It adds up fine. As an example, if villain's range is 77+, AQ+, we shouldn't necessarily want to 3-bet him. This range is going to play well against our hand IP even though we're an equity favorite, and if we 3-bet it will only narrow his range further as he'll probably fold the smaller pairs we beat. He may fold two overs, but that's only a small victory.

It's not too weird for villain to go ham on this flop/turn with something like TT/99. If he's thinking at all the only difference between 99 and AA is that 99 is much more vulnerable to overcards and benefits more from ending the hand early. We shouldn't be perceived as having 99+ in our range very often.

After the turn bet he's got $125 effective and there's $900 in the pot. I think there will be a lot of shrug-calls even with two overs or the smallest overpairs. Pot odds, yo.

Perhaps the fact that the bet leaves $125 behind is telling of strength. That money's going in almost certainly, but sizing down from all-in tempts more hands to call or shove.

Limp pre is a passable but still an extreme exploit, as is the limp-call post once this particular guy pops it to 25. The best part is most of the whales dumped their cards pre to Vs open and then you stacked off anyway to the only guy at the table with zero bluffs. In game conditions like this you absolutely cannot hand that guy money in a close spot that isn’t even a close spot once the overbet hits the felt. You just chuck your cards in his face otf and successfully nit-stomp by folding, then move back into whale stomping-mode and get in all pair+.

Flop is the easiest fold of your life

I’m fairly certain in a live game like the one described there is no way I’m getting away from this.

The preflop limp call is atrocious and makes the hand way harder.

even if you're heads up against the tightest player at the table?

l/r or l/jam plan pre in EP with like 99+/AQ+ seems like a good adjustment to game conditions. I'd go somewhere between reasonable-standard vs atrocious.

just goes to show the point
some players games never EVER evolve!

I know you're a decent player but I'm still struggling with this idea you had to limp vs raise pre. Can you please describe why you felt you couldnt raise pre? Like I understand there were fish and whales and maniacs and everything to act after you, but like so what? What were some of the situations you were hoping to encounter?

Where did I say I couldn't raise or that I had to limp?

He limped for information in a game where the pot is nearly guaranteed to be raised. It's a big deal to be able to see who raises/cold-calls/3-bets and act accordingly. We don't gain as much information by raising ourselves and we don't retain as many options compared to when we limp and have action open after someone else raises. The main downside to limping is missing value with a premium, but that doesn't really apply here in a game where people are raising too often pre-flop.

I mean I wouldn't limp this pre but if I did limp pre in a crazy game and hit my overpair, then I'm just going with it for 100bb.

+1

Poker is not paint by numbers. If you are still using charts that tell you what hands to raise from what positions, you probably also think that win rates above 10BB/hr are impossible.