First orbit of a new table.... 1/2 - 300 max


never played with anyone at my table before. The hand prior i called a raise(4 players), bet flop when it was checked to me and folded to a river bet.

Villain 1- young short stacker, limped once

Villain 2- middle aged male, seems active, limped twice and called a raise, bought in full

V2($292) limps, 2 other limp

Hero ($265)- BTN, dealt KQ raises to $20

V1($95)-SB, calls, V2 calls, rest fold

Flop: K 5 4

V1 bets $25, V2 calls, Hero....?

Raise to 120

I think it's difficult to play this hand in a way that gives your opponents a chance to make big mistakes(unless we cold call the 25, a blank turns and we then get lots of money in).

I expect V1 to call any flop raise all-in. That will give V2 pretty good odds to call, 3:1 if we raise to 120 and he will probably have implied odds against us due to our back door Q high draw which, if a hearts hit turn and river, could be good. If a heart turns and he pushes about 140 we will have 3.6:1 and may have to call(if we think he could ever be bluffing).

If we cold call flop and a blank turns and they check to us we may have to bet big to give V2 the chance to make a big mistake as I expect V1 to still call with any 8+ out draw.

I still think you have to raise flop because of the chance they are taking out each others outs. In that case they can be making big mistakes drawing.

Any type of raise pot commits you anyway. The FD will call because he gets to see 2 cards. Just go all in.

Yeah. That's what I did Venice. I was afraid of making a standard raise. Having the short stacker call setting up odds for v2 to draw.

I ended up shoving, and v1 folded, v2 called.

Yeah I don't usually advocate the overbet shove but here you are gonna be pot committed anyway and V1 will be shoving turn. Might as well shove it now.

nice to see a couple other people reach the same conclusion...

Results:

Why not just flat flop and reevaluate turn? Yes the flush draw is there, but the straight draw is unlikely.

I will say that if V2 had folded on the flop, I would have shoved $70 more all-in. But I'm not sure I want to shove 110 BB more with TP2K. Seems like we're just begging to get stacked against AK.

get it in!

i think flatting is out of the question. i most likely have the best hand and i wont be able to be that certain on the turn.

Even though we could have the best hand, this flop feels like a way-ahead, way-behind situation. Yes, there are two hearts out there, but I think it's folly to always assume the heart draw has to be out there. It could, don't get me wrong, but this seems like a pretty dry board to me.



I don't think flatting is out of the question at all. The hero has position on both villains. Remember, V1 just called the button's raise out of position in the small blind, and then lead out on the flop. If a blank comes on the turn, the hero gets to see if either villain likes his hand enough to bet again. If it's checked around, the hero can 'more safely' bet the turn. If V1 bets again, and V2 calls or goes all-in on the short-stack, then the hero can give serious consideration to throwing his hand away.

why would you want to give them virtually a free chance to draw out on you? thers 3 OESD, a handful of Gutshots, and a Flush draw. Clearly V1s bet indicates he has some type of weak made hand, v2 offers another sign of weakness by just calling.

to me the problem with this hand is if you raise to allow v1 to go all in, v2 is priced in to draw to straight or flush. I shoved to hopefully isolate v1 and shut v2 out of being able to draw comfortably. i dont know about you but i dont like offering ppl odds to draw on my stack.

one more thing about flatting. it just doesnt suite my style. villains expect me to be active in pots. they hope im raising with things like a fdraw in this spot. so just flatting is missing huge value from tons of hands villains would happily invest more money with that im crushing.

The flush draw is the only draw that's relevant with your $20 pre-flop raise and the V1 leading out. The only other scenario is V2 maybe having 67, and that's unlikely.

V1 is not leading out for sure with A2, A3, 68, or 78. He's probably not leading out with 32, 63, or 67o into the preflop raiser. He might lead out with 67 of hearts, in which case it's a coin-flip anyway, but more than likely he would check-raise that hand.

That's kind of my point. Usually, an all-in bet here is going to get called by AK or a set and force the weaker kings to fold. So you gain nothing from it, especially in position, unless you know the villains will call 110 BB with less than KQ.

Why is V2 on a draw? He could easily have a weaker king or 66-TT or even JJ here.

You're playing $1/$2. Villains aren't paying any attention to your "style".

if i have the best hand they all have some type of draw... and u gotta charge them. its merely a matter of how much here.

maybe you play a more conservative "style" or whatever. but this is why u make it $20 pf so you can play one pair hard otf.

Um, no they don't. That's the point.

KJ, KT, K9, K8, JJ, TT, 99, 88, 77, and 66 are all in the two villain's ranges.

So are AK, 55, and 44.

LOL i just read one of ur other posts in another thread where u r claiming that AK is a drawing hand..

let me explain it this way... have you ever heard the expression "make hay while the sun is still shining"


well in poker...

the sun is shining when you have the best hand, you make hay by betting

Yeah, I said treat AK as a drawing hand out of position (small blind) facing a raiser and a three-better. That's a completely different situation. I would not four-bet out of position with AK in a $1/$2 game. I admit that.

I understand implied odds quite well. I also think you're very poor on putting your opponents on ranges if you think they HAVE to be on a draw here.

The key to making money at $1/$2 is to valuetown opponents that have weaker hands than you. This isn't the case here.

There are three reasons to make a bet or a raise in poker:

1) Force stronger hands to fold

Nobody is folding AK, KK, 55, 44, or 54 to a shove, so this reason is out.

2) Get weaker hands to call

This is more plausible but kind of unlikely. As I said, the weaker hands at the table are KJ, KT, K9, K8, JJ, TT, 99, 88, 77, and 66. If you shove all in, none of the pocket pairs are going to call. After you "call the 25", it would be $141 in the pot, and $55 more for V1 and $220 more to call for V2.

V1 could call his last $55 and hope his KJ/KT is good, but I would doubt it. You raised preflop and then went over the top of his flop raise. You've shown nothing but strength so far AND V2 is still behind him possibly laying a trap with a flopped set.

V2 would have to call $220 more to win $361, getting about 3:2 on his money. But again, you've shown nothing but strength in his hand. If V1 calls, he could be calling $220 more to win $416, but V2 would have to also beat V1 as well. Unless V2 decides that you are on a draw and can beat you, in which case he would have a 2:1 chance to win the sidepot against you for $165 ($110 equity), but lose $55 in the main pot to V1. But V2 has no reason to put you on a draw since you've raised pre-flop and then shipped it as a flop reraise, unless for some reason he puts you on exactly AQh or AJh.

If V2 had folded to the $25 on the flop, and you shipped it against V1, it would cost him $55 to win $171, or less than 3:1. I actually like shipping it against V1 if V2 hadn't called because V1 has already committed half of his stack and he's getting a good price to hope a weaker king is good. V1 is more likely to make a crying call in this situation.

3) Deny proper odds to drawing hands.

This one does apply here but let's look at your opponents actions in the hand so far. V1 bet the flop into the pre-flop raiser (you). It's highly unlikely (but possible) he's on a draw, especially on a short-stack. He's probably binked a king. You could raise $55 more to put him all-in, but the involvement of V2 could frighten him off if he thinks V2 has a better king or a set.

If V1 does for some reason have JT of hearts, then you're bet STILL doesn't accomplish it's goal. It costs V1 $55 to win $196. V1 would only need to be right 22% of the time to make this call and he's got a 32.8% shot against you. Even if V2 makes the call with two black fours, it would be $55 to win $251. V1 would only have to be right 18% of the time and he's getting a 23% shot. So if V1 has the draw, either way, reraising him all in does NOT deny him the proper odds.

Reraising all-in MAY NOT deny V2 the proper odds either. If V1 folds, then V2 has to call $220 to win $361. He would be have to be right 37.9% of the time to justify a call and he's got a 32.8% against you with JTh. So it would be a bad call, but quite frankly not a "terrible" call. V2 would have to put in $220 with an equity of $190 (32.8% * $581), so his expected value is -$30. If V2 has the AJh, then he has a 43.5% chance to win, so he should call. Here, his call has an equity of $253 (43.5% * $581), so his expected value is +$32.

Now, if V1 calls and has the two black fours, then V2 could call here with AJh. He'd have to call $220 to win $416 total, but it's not all in the main pot. He would have to call $55 more to win $251 in the main pot. He'd need to be right 18% of the time to justify that call, and he has a 25% chance. Also, he'd have to call $165 more to win $165 from you in the sidepot. He has a 43.5% straight up with you getting 1:1 on his money, but with the main pot, V2 would have an equity of $220 (25% * $306 + 43.5% * $330). So V2 is getting literally exactly the price to call with AJh even if V1 had a set.

If V1 had two black fours and V2 had JTh, V2 would still have a 23% chance to win the whole pot with a flush/straight (getting better than 4:1 odds) but he's a 2:1 underdog to win the sidepot laying even money. That gives him an equity of $179 (23% * $306 + 33% * $330) on a bet of $220, meaning an EV of -$41.

If V1 had say KJs, and V2 had JTh, then V2 would have an equity of $210 on a call of $220 (33% * $306 + 33% * $330), meaning an EV of -$10. If V2 had AJh, then V2 would have an equity of $283 (45.4% * $306 + 43.5% * $331), meaning an EV of +$63.

Cliffs
1) Force stronger hands to fold: Not happening
2) Get weaker hands to call: More practical if V2 had folded on the flop unless you feel V2 will call you with a weaker king.
3) Deny proper odds to drawing hands: V1 has the right odds to call you with a flush draw. V2 has the right odds with a nut flush draw and probably not the right odds with a jack-high flush draw unless V1 has a weak king.

So basically, reraising all-in doesn't accomplish too much UNLESS you think V1 will call with a weak king and V2 will fold. Most of the time, you are making the weaker hands fold and the stronger hands call, which is the exact opposite purpose of a raise.

As I count it, given V1's fold, V2 will make a profitable call of this push when holding an ace high flush draw. He only needs 10 outs in fact.

If he folds all his weaker Kings this push is a disaster as only draws and sets, which chop with you or crush you, play. He had a back door draw: maybe he would have folded without it.

If we consider him having a draw, raising to 120 is much better than pushing because it enables him to make the mistake of just calling to 120 instead of pushing - which lots of people do based on my experience. He would have to call 95 to win 235, 2.5:1 and thus need 14 outs to do so profitably.

mannn.. that was a long post. we will just have to agree to disagree i guess.

i also wanted to add. i didnt just "think he was on a draw" i assumed his range of a variety of draws and one pair hands. hands i crush. i shoved for value and to give bad odds.

if i jsut call on the flop i essentialy make v's actions +EV cuz they get to try and draw out on me ( two pairs, trips, etc). calling 25 to win the pot plus future bets. where as raising makes them pay too much with inferior hands = profit.