Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-18-2019, 10:02 PM   #1
Gauntlet
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17
Arrow Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

1/3 NL
CO is the effective stack of 660
UTG has been very active. Plays nearly 50% of hands. Is into the game for 1k and has swung his stack back up to approx 1100.

UTG limps. Folds to CO. CO ISO raises to $13 with As 4s. BB calls and UTG calls

Flop: 5d 3c 2d

Checks to CO. Bets $35. This bet was based on previous hands with UTG in which he called nearly pot sized bets with two over cards and no additonal draw. I was very confident I would get a call by any hand that had ONE diamond in it. Any hand that contained one of the three remaining fours or aces.

BB folds. UTG calls

Turn: 8c

UTG leads for $110.

My stack at this juncture is 612. Pot size is 220.

Given stack depth, bet amount and pot size, what is the appropriate action?
Gauntlet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 10:08 PM   #2
Avaritia
Confirmed 2500 hour haver
 
Avaritia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,316
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Kindly inform the dealer that you would like to wager all of your betting units.
Avaritia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 10:20 PM   #3
Koss
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Playing Recreationally
Posts: 5,105
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Kindly inform the dealer that you would like to wager all of your betting units.
Yeah, if there weren't two flush draws out there, I could get behind a call. But in spots like these, about half the deck is bad for you, and will cause you to either stack off and lose, or miss out on value. Just get it in and hope that he makes a huge mistake. Smaller raises can be fine too. You'll be committed on the river, but making it like $350 is also an option.
Koss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 10:53 PM   #4
Gauntlet
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Kindly inform the dealer that you would like to wager all of your betting units.
LOL. I will use that phrase in the future if you don't mind.
Gauntlet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 10:55 PM   #5
Gauntlet
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koss View Post
Yeah, if there weren't two flush draws out there, I could get behind a call. But in spots like these, about half the deck is bad for you, and will cause you to either stack off and lose, or miss out on value. Just get it in and hope that he makes a huge mistake. Smaller raises can be fine too. You'll be committed on the river, but making it like $350 is also an option.
If you chose to raise to $350, are we just closing our eyes and calling any river?
Gauntlet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2019, 11:17 PM   #6
Koss
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Playing Recreationally
Posts: 5,105
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
If you chose to raise to $350, are we just closing our eyes and calling any river?
Yep. Or shoving the rest if checked to.
Koss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 03:25 AM   #7
noxor
stranger
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 13
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koss View Post
Yep. Or shoving the rest if checked to.
Aren't we allowing V to play more optimally if we raise and then leave him the option to fold a brick river?

Should we be going over maths to decide if 1) raising to 350 with V on a draw or 2) jamming turn again putting V on draws, is more profitable long term?
noxor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 04:08 AM   #8
Amanaplan
acanalpanamA
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Getting There
Posts: 4,080
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by noxor View Post
Aren't we allowing V to play more optimally if we raise and then leave him the option to fold a brick river?

Should we be going over maths to decide if 1) raising to 350 with V on a draw or 2) jamming turn again putting V on draws, is more profitable long term?
Nah gitfi
Amanaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 05:30 AM   #9
DonkeyRock
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 290
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Stuff it in his eye.
DonkeyRock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 06:14 AM   #10
PFunkaliscious
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,026
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

This is not very deep stacked. This is not even deep stacked. between 1 - 300 BB in live poker is considered standard.

As played, it is almost certain that your V has some kind of combo draw on the turn. The most obvious combo draw is either 67dd or 67cc. But you really don't want to see half of the deck on the river. Kinda like a jam, but that is giving up too much value as your V will most likely fold.

Make it 450. Anything less is giving your V too good of a price.

Need a super solid read before folding the river
PFunkaliscious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 07:36 AM   #11
Gauntlet
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFunkaliscious View Post
This is not very deep stacked. This is not even deep stacked. between 1 - 300 BB in live poker is considered standard.

As played, it is almost certain that your V has some kind of combo draw on the turn. The most obvious combo draw is either 67dd or 67cc. But you really don't want to see half of the deck on the river. Kinda like a jam, but that is giving up too much value as your V will most likely fold.

Make it 450. Anything less is giving your V too good of a price.

Need a super solid read before folding the river
Apologies for misleading you. This isn't a common occurrence to have 200bb+ butt heads in the poker room I play.

Doesn't raising to 350 accomplish what you are looking for? Even if we do call off bad on the river?
Gauntlet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 10:00 AM   #12
twitcherroo
old hand
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,233
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

I think ~$375 or so is WAY better than a shove. Shove will let V find too many folds. If you get to the river you’re putting the rest in on 100% of runouts.
twitcherroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 11:37 AM   #13
gobbledygeek
Poet Laureate of LLSNL
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 29,720
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

I just overlimp at my loose game, and the reason is cuz isolating is hard. We still have 3 guys behind us that can get into the mix, and sure enough one of them did, and so we didn't "isolate" anyone. If the raise was going to mainly get us HU with the mark, fine, but it just isn't enough for a non-outrageous price. IMO.

I would actually overbet this flop as this guy (and most people) never fold draws on the flop, especially this deep. I probably make it $50.

Against this guy, if we've gotten coolered my plan is to lose my stack with the second nuts. Otherwise, I'm putting the hammer down now. I doubt he's putting us on a super strong hand on this board as the preflop raiser (I guess one of the benefits to our preflop raise). I would probably consider shoving.

GcluelessNLnoobG
gobbledygeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 11:45 AM   #14
shorn7
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,426
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by twitcherroo View Post
I think ~$375 or so is WAY better than a shove. Shove will let V find too many folds. If you get to the river you’re putting the rest in on 100% of runouts.
I agree with twitcheroo here. I don't want to lose my opponent and so I think a shove is too much here. Would be $502 into a pot of $330....hmmm maybe not as bad as I thought but I would need to be certain that V would call off with all his two pair and set combos to shove here. Smells a ton like Ad8d or something like that.

Nah, I prefer a smaller raise which might get to shove anyway which is fine. Just don't want to lose him.
shorn7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 01:29 PM   #15
jc315
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,010
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFunkaliscious View Post
This is not very deep stacked. This is not even deep stacked. between 1 - 300 BB in live poker is considered standard.
i disagree. where do you play where 200-300bb deep is standard for a $1/3 game?

i play in a room where $1/3 games are very deep, but i would say that is not “standard.”

agree that 200bb is not “very deep.” but i would consider maybe around 250-350bb to be deep, and 350+ to be “very deep”



anyway, i dont think jamming is good. we have 500 back still. we allow villains to correctly fold. i think even average rec players would fold a big draw here for another $500 in a $1/3 game.

i would raise to something like $375
jc315 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 02:11 PM   #16
StinkHolePatrol
journeyman
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 253
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Jam it in his face.

Even with just a ace high flush draw here he has 20% to tie or win.

A combo straight/flush has 30%. 67 clubs seems pretty likely.

We jam now we make 220 everytime he folds

If we raise to 300-350 then we let him pay 200-50 to win 800 (not including your money behind) which is almost even money on a naked flush draw. With a combo draw he has better then direct odds since he'd only need 3.3 to one, especially considering he gets the rest from you if he hits and can fold if he doesnt.


The only mistake we can let him make here is calling a jam with a draw. We don't care if he folds his equity.



On the off chance he has a set he is never folding to a jam here. And there are many cards he may get away from on the river.

Last edited by StinkHolePatrol; 03-19-2019 at 02:18 PM.
StinkHolePatrol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 03:20 PM   #17
Gauntlet
newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 17
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by StinkHolePatrol View Post
Jam it in his face.

Even with just a ace high flush draw here he has 20% to tie or win.

A combo straight/flush has 30%. 67 clubs seems pretty likely.

We jam now we make 220 everytime he folds

If we raise to 300-350 then we let him pay 200-50 to win 800 (not including your money behind) which is almost even money on a naked flush draw. With a combo draw he has better then direct odds since he'd only need 3.3 to one, especially considering he gets the rest from you if he hits and can fold if he doesnt.
There are a lot more naked flush draws, pair plus flush draws, pair plus straight draws than there are combos that have multiple draws to beat the CO hand.

Given this, so you still feel a shove is the play or is it wasting to much equity?
Gauntlet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 03:52 PM   #18
Avaritia
Confirmed 2500 hour haver
 
Avaritia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 12,316
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

No, what he said is correct. Even though you are also correct (there are more naked draws or weak pair+draws etc) those hands are not putting an additional cent in the pot otr if they miss. The value to be had from those hands is ott. It’s a texture thing.

How many times have you sized weird and bet like $200 ott and left villain $100 otr (or whatever, you get the idea) and stuff river and villain sheepishly folds. That’s because on this kind of texture their river decision will always be binary...nuts or nothing. This isn’t a Kxxr flop where we can do different things with sizings targeting a weak king.

It’s a combo draw texture flop where villain is always folding river unless he hits. Or he is not folding turn anyway (if he has a set, etc)
Avaritia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 04:04 PM   #19
Amanaplan
acanalpanamA
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Getting There
Posts: 4,080
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
No, what he said is correct. Even though you are also correct (there are more naked draws or weak pair+draws etc) those hands are not putting an additional cent in the pot otr if they miss. The value to be had from those hands is ott. It’s a texture thing.

How many times have you sized weird and bet like $200 ott and left villain $100 otr (or whatever, you get the idea) and stuff river and villain sheepishly folds. That’s because on this kind of texture their river decision will always be binary...nuts or nothing. This isn’t a Kxxr flop where we can do different things with sizings targeting a weak king.

It’s a combo draw texture flop where villain is always folding river unless he hits. Or he is not folding turn anyway (if he has a set, etc)
Yeah, as stated above, it's a big boon to be able to recognize these spots pre-river where V will have either 100% or 0% equity on the river. If you can 9ball it and start recognizing these spots otf too, then get yourself to where you want to be on the turn, then you can polish your sizing. Polished sizing is a big part of the secret sauce to crushing. Granted, not easy, and stuff is so swingy pre-turn, but at the very least gotta know on turns what's what.
Amanaplan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 04:04 PM   #20
StinkHolePatrol
journeyman
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 253
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
There are a lot more naked flush draws, pair plus flush draws, pair plus straight draws than there are combos that have multiple draws to beat the CO hand.

Given this, so you still feel a shove is the play or is it wasting to much equity?
At worst he has 20%

At best he has 30%

Sets/flushes with an ace have 20 and combos have 30


You are only getting additional money in the middle vs drawing hands OTR if villain hits, after which you will lose. Unless he turns a missed draw into a bluff representing the other flush(say diamonds comes in and he bluffs his clubs).

Sets are never folding turn so jamming now doesn't scare them away.

Giving him any other price other then all in will be correct odds for him assuming you always call off the trivial river jam of like 250-300. If you raise to 300 or 350.



Jaming is the only play here, if he folds you win 200$ 100% of the time. If he calls it's a mistake.

If you raise and he calls now he pays another 200 to win like 1k 20-30% of the time. You can never fold any rivers, there are two flush draws out there and a number of straight draws, we can simply never fold because we won't know if he's turning a missed draw into a bluff with that much in the middle. We don't know if he's on diamonds or clubs or a set at this point. Only that he wants to put money in the middle, so let's oblidge.


If he rolls over 46 then it's just not your night.

Last edited by StinkHolePatrol; 03-19-2019 at 04:15 PM.
StinkHolePatrol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 04:11 PM   #21
PFunkaliscious
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,026
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gauntlet View Post
Apologies for misleading you. This isn't a common occurrence to have 200bb+ butt heads in the poker room I play.

Doesn't raising to 350 accomplish what you are looking for? Even if we do call off bad on the river?
kinda. but we want to go as big as we can. 350 is ok, but if he is just as likely to call 450, go 450.

Since we know that he is a on draw and he is trying to name his price or just take it down right there, it is really hard to get him to call a jam
PFunkaliscious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 04:11 PM   #22
$FishWreck$
grinder
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 476
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Grunching:

There are 21 cards in that deck (48% - clubs, Aces, 4's, and cards that pair) that you are going to hate and you are going to have to pay them off. You are behind exactly 46 and nothing else. Most of his one pair hands aren't pot-sized donking the turn anyway, so he had a FD, a combo, a set, or air.

Board too dangerous to risk everything this deep to extract another bet from air. Defensive over-shove is in order here. Maybe he'll talk himself into doing something stupid.

(FWIW - you will be shoving $500 into a $330 pot.)

Last edited by $FishWreck$; 03-19-2019 at 04:17 PM.
$FishWreck$ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 04:18 PM   #23
PFunkaliscious
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,026
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by jc315 View Post
i disagree. where do you play where 200-300bb deep is standard for a $1/3 game?

i play in a room where $1/3 games are very deep, but i would say that is not “standard.”

agree that 200bb is not “very deep.” but i would consider maybe around 250-350bb to be deep, and 350+ to be “very deep”



anyway, i dont think jamming is good. we have 500 back still. we allow villains to correctly fold. i think even average rec players would fold a big draw here for another $500 in a $1/3 game.

i would raise to something like $375
Texas. 100bb - 1000bb is standard. There will usually be a least 2 players on the table with 1000bb. It is not uncommon to see someone rack up 4 or 5k off of the 1/3 game on the weekends.
PFunkaliscious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 04:26 PM   #24
$FishWreck$
grinder
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 476
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by twitcherroo View Post
If you get to the river you’re putting the rest in on 100% of runouts.
Not a chance. If river bricks for V, you will lose all of his busted FD's, gutshots, and the occasional OESD. This is probably more than half his calling range.
$FishWreck$ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2019, 05:37 PM   #25
jc315
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,010
Re: Very Deep Stacked Facing Pot Sized Turn Donk Bet

Quote:
Originally Posted by PFunkaliscious View Post
Texas. 100bb - 1000bb is standard. There will usually be a least 2 players on the table with 1000bb. It is not uncommon to see someone rack up 4 or 5k off of the 1/3 game on the weekends.

Texas 500bb stacks standard.

Vast majority of $1/3 games 500bb not standard.
jc315 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online