1/3 Fishy Room, new to the table, No real reads on V except I haven't seen him before.

Hero UTG (400$); Raise 15
Villain UTG +1 (170$); 3-bet 45

folds around back to H.

What's the best way to define my hand?

Min raise 75 with intention of calling all in?
Shove? (seems awful).
as Does calling with intention of shoving low board.

villian is 56BB deep.

Can't really make a mistake by shoving.

He already committed himself. If you want to get tricky and call and donk any flop be my guest but it seems bad.

I'd call and be ready to get it in otf. But shoving isn't terrible because of stack size, but just seems kind of weak since you'll either scare off a hand you beat, be called by better, or maybe get called by AK for a flip. Your hand is too strong to bluff and lose value/value-own yourself.

im probably folding with his stack as long as he's just a regular rec. If he 3bets AK, he probably also tops off.

I had this precise situation happen to me last week at borgata $2/$5, gambly loose passive player three-bet to $40, I jammed, he says what the hell, let's gamble and called with AQ off. I was at the table with him for some time though and my jam was knowing that he would call it off at or near the bottom of his range.

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Raise/call $85-100. Shove any flop

I hate this spot. That 3-bet to 45 looks really strong and a lot of players won't do it unless they have you crushed. Any kind of reads are so important here. I'd insta muck against an OMC for example. Also, a lot of players will think that $170 in this spot is more than it really is, and will play straightforward which means they have a really big hand here.

How many villains 3-bet to 45 in that spot with hand like JJ or AQ? Not many that I've seen in a 1/3 game, and AQ is less likely because you have blockers to it. You're really just praying that he has AK and will 3-bet with it, which might not be the case, or that he has a wider range than most players.

Also if villain does have one of those hands you can't just assume you're getting his stack. He probably folds to a shove and often folds when he doesn't like the flop. And you often get stacked in situations when he has AA or KK.

I don't like my hand against his range and don't like the fact that I think I'll get stacked way more than he gets stacked in this situation. And it's not like I have great odds to set mine or anything like that. You don't even have position so if you wait to see the flop you are OOP. I'm folding to the 3-bet unless I think villain is unusually aggressive.

Is V old like the ground we walk on?
Is he a young asian who seems like he might hate money and is busy trying to find a lighter to he can light the rest of his wallet on fire?
Is he ~40, wearing a button up shirt, and likely just getting off work?
Is he wearing a hoodie, or any WSOP gear?
Is he drinking? Does he stack his chips in $50 or $100 stacks? Did he use two hands or one hand to cut out his chips? Did he think at all before he 3bet, or just auto do it as if it was his only choice? Is he shuffling his chips? How many

How many hands has he been at the table? Has he raised at all during that time? Has he limped at all during that time? Has he engaged in any table conversations? Is he reading something on his iPad?

Generally this is a fold.
Rec player just don't 3bet enough here.

This.

I think the textbook answer, given stack sizes, is to figure out the best way to get your stack in, and then do it. But. This is 1/2, it ain't 6-max.

People typically don't 3bet at 1/2 unless they have to. Question is, in what situations do the fish feel like they have to 3bet. It's AA,KK 90% of the time.

Now, a lot of people will 3bet AK. I've seen loose-passive players where AK is the only hand they will play aggressively. They gripe about it, because they don't really understand what they are doing, but they are out there.

So let's think about this. In general, you will be up against a couple of basic types of 3betting ranges. The first two are the most common polarized ranges. The second two are the most common balanced ranges.

1. AA,KK (sometimes just AA). Common.
2. AA,KK,AK. Common. Although it looks similar, it is very different; half the combo's in play are behind your pocket pair, although not by much. So, against someone who rarely 3bets, whether AK is in his range is a key question.
3. A range of equity hands, eg TT+,AK,AQs. Uncommon, but if you happen to have a good player at your table, this is the range he is probably on. Key question is, how low he goes. If he dips down to AJ or worse, there's money to be made. But be careful.
4. A 'depolarized" range in which villain 3bets a mixture of good hands and weak hands, and calls with the rest of his range. Rare. If you see this pattern, it's probably a maniac but be careful. A thinking player who knows how to balance his 3betting range is truly frightening (rest assured, he isn't playing trash). Fortunately you won't see this very often at 1/2 because, frankly, it's unnecessary.

The last two are the domain of skilled players, and should not be assumed at 1/2 without reads. Beyond that, a skilled player does not engage in this sort of nonsense against an UTG raiser with short effective stack sizes.

Against the first, you are set-mining, and you there isn't enough money in play here to do that.

The second is tricky. A skilled player might well play this range against an EP raiser, depending on reads. But some fish might play this range too, because Vince van Patten says you're supposed to. In this case, you are ahead of half of villain's range, and your outs have the potential to stack villain.

Whether we are to assume villain is on this range or not is open to question. If you think it is, play. If you decide to play, you can either call or raise. A raise is as good as a shove against this range; nothing ever folds pre. If you want to get value from AK (or, if you're on AK, and want to fold AK out) I think you're better off calling pre. AK will cbet a low flop if checked to, and over time will probably let you get to showdown relatively cheaply. Same outcome with less variance I think, giving you the chance to scurry away if an A or K falls OTF.

Obviously I don't like raising, and I really don't like the idea of raising to "define your hand." Why? To what purpose?

If you're against range 3, you define your hand by getting weaker hands to fold, and stronger hands to call or shove. You've defined your hand alright, but you haven't made any money, have you?

To get value, there has to be a flop. If you flop a Q, well there you go. If the flop comes down 9 high, you can convince yourself you're getting value from TT-JJ. (I don't buy it, but it's your game.)

As for range 4, if you're up against a maniac, the last thing you want to do is define your hand. And if you want to get into a leveling war with someone who is (let's face it) better than you, knock yourself right on out. Suffice to say, that's not how you make money at 1/2.

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I know it's hard. You can't get fancy with a bunch of short-stacked calling stations, so you sit there for three hours waiting for a decent starting hand, and then you get ****-blocked. It'll make you old before your time; and if you're not careful, you'll get too old. You'll start wearing a DAV cap and thick horn-rimmed glasses, you'll start drinking black coffee, and you'll be saying, "I waited all night for this hand, and I'm not laying it down for nobody." Don't be that guy.

Stack size is a key concept. The challenge in playing in these weak, fishy card rooms is that people so frequently buy in short. It is absolutely imperative that you be a better short-stack player than your opponents. You must be aware of the type of mistakes they make, and exploit them. But you also need to be aware of the things they do right, however subconsciously, and not hang yourself out to dry.

The mistake fish make when short-stacked is they limp-call and then play fit-or-fold on the flop. Yeah, it's the same mistake they make with a 100bb stack, it's just that the mistake is magnified when they have a short stack.

But not here. Because here's one mistake they don't make: fish don't 3bet trash.

If you fold here, you'll be happier in the long run.

Question I have in general about this but not relating specifically to this situation:

In a 1/2 game,if you have the QQ,what do you do if someone else(w/a normal size 1/2 stack) flats the 45(For Ex the button)? That is giving you,in theory,better odds to call. But also makes it more likely your hand is beat. IMO you would never be able to just call. You'd have to raise/ship or fold.

A raise UTG is strong; 3betting the UTG raiser is Army-strong. If button calls, he is either
a) slowplaying aces, or
b) ******ed.

If it's b), you aren't behind.

Let's assume for a moment that UTG+1 is on a range we can work with, like no tighter than AA,KK,AK, where we are ahead of half his range preflop. And say we believe we have a smidge of equity to the extent villain will put at least some money into the pot with AK, will put a lot of money in if we spike a set, and will generally play his hand face-up.

You can shove if you want. Shoving heads up against UTG+1 is working for pennies, if that. Nice to have a little dead money in the pot I guess.

To me, I don't figure to make much money, if any, off UTG+1. So the main question would be, does BTN have enough money to get my interest. If he does, I'm not inclined to try to shove him out of the pot. I'd be more inclined to keep him in.

First of all, if button is on $400, call all day; now you have odds to setmine.

Even if you aren't getting setmining odds, there's still money to be made, but play gets complicated post-flop. A high flop -- and by high, I mean like T or more -- and you're dead in the water. But you can make hay with a low flop, depending on who bets and who calls.

So it's playable, but not much money to be made until BTN starts getting pretty deep, and lots of places to go wrong. Which, I think is why people sometimes consider the shove, to avoid having to actually, you know, play the flop and turn. Not a great reason to shove imo. It's OK to think "I'm getting crushed here," equally OK to think, "Aw this is just too much fricken work for too little money." Both good reasons to fold. Best reason to shove IMO is when you're thinking, "Ya know, I think both of these guys are stupid enough to call."

I would call. Shoving often just gets you heads up against the guy with KK+. Calling at least gives you setmining odds.

When someone raises to 15 and another player makes it 45, then I wouldn't expect another player to slowplay aces with $60 in the pot already. Kings might call fearing the aces, but I've seen people make calls for around $45 with hands like AQ, KQ, or even worse because they think those are great hands and find it too hard to fold them, especially after they have been playing a bunch of other hands that are much worse.

This was my thinking exactly, I don't see the point in trying to play a guessing game with a player who either has me crushed or plays way to loose with AK tt-JJ etc. I'm out a standard pre-flop raise (happens all the time), and I am sure to see this player again when I have a better idea of my Hand strength.

With just 56bbs, I'm shoving.

Facing a 3bet in most 1/3 NL games is pretty scary since it is so often what you think it is. But the smaller the stacks get, the more this range widens. Plus we have no read on this guy (or him on us). Plus a lot of people would flat AA/KK here in UTG+1 for fear of blowing out the rest of the field (they want action). People don't 3bet/fold preflop with 56bbs, so lets just get it in now while their Ax hands are willing to do so, JJ doesn't see a AK flop, etc.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Ask yourself what he would do with 88-JJ here and you have your answer


Also ask what he does with AT+

Easy 4bet jam pre without any reads for less than 60BB.