I highly doubt villain is folding to a 4bet that much. I think he is calling any pair and any ace he 3bets with. Honestly i would say he folds literally half as much as that.

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I'm interested in what range you put V on, his continuing range & shove range & how your math works out based upon your beliefs

I'd be calling and finding the best line post with a lot of hands, AA as well sometimes, particularly if the dynamic doesn't really allow room for 4betting pre as a better way of getting value from the whale than flatting and having him bluff off some chips on boards good (enough) for jacks.

Doesn't sound like a whale.

Really?Did you miss the part where i wrote that he in an earlier game 3 bet called off my 4 bet shove for 100 blinds preflop with 10 high? He is probably the one single player that have given me the most money over the last 4 years or so.

He lost around $50 000 total in the underground game i am talking about in 1 year during the span of 2017. He is one of the top 3 whales i have ever been playing with.

The fact that he is isnt completely ******ed, and actually know a thing or two about how to play decent poker doesent change the fact that he is indeed a huge whale.

Calling off with t9s is generally fine if you're getting 2:1. Whales generally don't have a 3b/f range in my experience, and definitely not with a pocket pair. Stuck 50k does sound whaleish. Missed that part.

If he’s just gonna be whaling and calling 4bs and gambling like mad for any amount pre then JJ must be 4b. The reason I’m calling though is because it seems from your description that he might not have unlocked “ten high” mode and you make more having him betting wide post.

If this is true then you are never going to get a better answer from someone else than you can provide yourself unless you are talking to people that play in the game with you.

Having said that I like calling better. You're still really deep and given the amount of history you have with the guy you should have a good feel for how he is going to play flops with his given ranges. I love playing jacks postflop, especially against a LAG. You shouldn't need a set to be able to continue to most turns. Even if you are just set mining you have more than 10x his $50 raise behind. This is the type of spot you have to get comfortable with because the reason you are at the table is to play with him.

4betting pre sounds like its probably +ev but I think the decision is much more marginal and he's going to have tons of equity against jacks with his 3betting range either way. If you do 4bet it shouldn't be all in, it should probably be with the intention of inducing a shove or a light call. If he calls the 4 bet your previous history should tell you what he's willing to do that with.

Important distinction,youre read is on the spot. He is not in spewmode when this hand occured: too early in the evening, and he isnt stuck heaps yet as is often the case when he makes the most crazy stackoffs or gambly plays.

Waylander: good point,and thanks for pointing that out. But i still like to get some outside inputs from posters on this forum even though they dont know my games in detail, just to get some fresh eyes on it and get some different opinions out there.Sometimes when you play in the same games alot with the same small group of players its easy to get little bit lost sometimes, and "you cant see the trees in the forest". I discuss hands with friends who play in the same games too and know all the villains, but i like a good mixture. Ive found over time that 2+2 posters can often give me more analytical objective type of inputs or another type of input than my fellow regs in the games, cause they arent infact influenced/coloured by knowing all the villains.

Has the UTG been straddling the whole game? Does he often defend his straddle? What type of player is he?

How does villain play in straddled pots? Does he go after dead money?

How often do 4b happen in this game? Does V call 4 bets?

Call pre

These threads are stupid as it's hard to paint the correct picture of villain along with some in game stuff and histories etc. Also too hard to know what villain thinks of hero. Don't think with my image I ever need to flat here.

Vs some whales I play with it's 1000% a 4b/c or whatever. Vs others flatting is ok as they are typically more of the station whales. Problem with flatting is JJ is on the cusp of strong enough and not strong enough and gets you in some choochy spots post (yea yea everyone is a post flop master so flat and play perfect)

Am I the only one that would 4bet/fold here? I'd 4bet to $190 and fold if he 5bet jams $650. There's a huge difference between someone who 3bets light vs someone who 5bets light. I know this because I 3bet light all the time, and occassionally even 4bet light, but I guarantee that my 5betting range is never going to be lighter than {QQ+, AK} at the bare minimum. I assume this guy plays similar to how I do. He actually seems like a competent LAG.

Postflop, I'm going to block range on the flop. Pick a Cbet sizing of $100 (quarter pot) and use it for your entire range on any board texture. It will make you unexploitable. If we face a flop jam then we're probably going to be giving up if we don't flop a set or an overpair. We're probably giving up a lot of turns and rivers too. But that's okay because our range is protected by the times when we have KK+.

Competent lags are not usually -$50k in a year.

Lol at 5b QQ.

How do you know he's down 50k?

There are certain situations where 5betting QQ is warranted, even with 220bb stacks, but they usually occur in late position vs blind dynamics against aggro players.

An example is: 200nl online with $440 effective
BTN opens $5
BB 3bets $18
BTN 4bets $45
BB 5bets $115 with QQ

I'm not sure whether villain is going to 5bet QQ in this spot though, just as I'm not sure whether he'll 5bet AK either (more likely though). But I do think that we can safely fold JJ to a 5bet jam.

Garick! You caught me being lazy! The FAT # involved when he calls created an optical illusion in my head & it appeared that there was no way it was close. I thought, that at a minimum, that it had to be $50 -Ev! So I didn't bother finishing the math.

I guess I shall have to finish my math from now in, in fear of the 'Math Nazi' [] catching me with my pants down.

I said he folds almost 50% of the time, 50 of 105 combos, which is 47.61% * $75 = $35.71

When he calls the other 52.39% of the time:

We win $656 * .4354 * .5239 = +$149.64
We lose $625 * .5646 * 5239 = -$184.87

So, we're actually looking at a long-term +Ev of $35.71 + $149.64 - $184.87 = +$0.68

So since he folds slightly less than 50% of the time, it's actually break even.... BEFORE you tip the dealer. Still a far cry from the -$50 I thought it had to be close to.

NOTE: This all has to do with the range I gave V & his calling frequency. Again: I do not believe it's what the whale is calling with, I guessed based upon what I perceived in my mind, how V would react to an all-in from Hero. Since V made that comment about Hero pre, it's obvious that V has an idea of how TAG Hero plays.

If V !3 wider, calls off the all-in a little wider & he probably does both, H can make a tidy profit long-term. You just need a phatt bankroll to handle the variance of this & all the other numerous close +Ev plays. You lose a 50/50 coin-flip 4x in a row 6.25% of the time & runner, runner flush is < so 5x coin-flips is 3.125%, which is only slightly less than runner, runner flush.

One thing to consider is whether we're 4bet jamming KK/AA or whether we're just 4betting those hands to $190.

Personally, I would just 4bet to $190 with my entire range.

Because he is reading the thread. If you bothered using 2 minutes doing that you would have known too.

And how do you know he's 50k down? Do you keep track of all his wins and losses?

So often, people look at LAGs and just assume that they're spewy incompetent whales that are down heaps, but often that's not the case. Often they use their aggression to put people in tough spots. It's not a bad thing to 3bet light. It's a useful tool to have. His sizing seems on point too. I really question how bad he can be.

Until you can show me some evidence that he's just an incompetent maniac that's going to 5bet jam a hand like AT, I'm still going to be on be on board with 4bet/folding.

Yeah, regular UTG straddle in this game. Or like 6 out of 9 players is doing it almost every round, so nothing special about that. The guy straddling this hand is a regfish, breaking even at best- probably slightly losing. He would defend his straddle calling my 24 open with anything remotely playable, almost any two if they are suited.

Regarding 4 bets, those are not that common in this game. Most players adjust to players that is 3 betting more than average with calling more. Mostly because they dont know better, and showing more aggression like 4 betting or shoving more pre is unknown territory for most players. Like, they start calling the 3 bets with more hands, but very few is widening their 4 bet range as an adjustment. Exception is me and two other grinders that play regurarly in the game. Not that a bunch of good 4 betting spots is coming up every game against the few players that is indeed capable of 3 betting light, but they do happen occasionally.

Finally, villain is most likely gonna respond to a 4 bet with flatting every hand that isnt an ultra premium. He is very sticky, especially after opening pots himself or 3 betting. Usually he is inelastic to betsizing too, if he have decided he wants to gamble. So lets say he is 3 betting me with J10 suited here as an example, he is peeling a flop against my 4 bet at any "normal" sizing. Doesent matter if i make it $200 or $300, he is calling trying to flop equity on me and pile it in. At the same time my experience with him tells me he is only gonna 5 bet pile QQ+. The rest of his 3 bet range he is gonna flat a 4 bet with, including AK off. AK suited he might 5 bet pile, but his default is too see a flop trying to flop equity.

Maybe you can start trusting what i say for once, and wrap your head around the fact that i dont run around at this forum at 38 of age and spewing out fantasy statements that i am not sure of? Youre attitude and ignorance is freaking unbelieveable. Get a ****ing grip.

I know from your own thread in the pokergoals forum that you have insecurities regarding being a spewy lag and then obviously have needs to post defending speeches about lags, because you are one yourself. Yes, there excist good skilled lags wich knows how to shift gears very well at LLSNL: but they are very few and far in between,and you are not one of them yet just to make that clear.

This guy is a well known whale in our playerpool, and i have as mentioned logged several hundred hours with him over the last 3-4 years. We have a good respectful relationship after all this history together. I know he is down around $50 000 last year because he is open about it, and he simply told me so in a conversation we had.

Also, let me clear something up regarding lags or whales 6betme-since you are interested in that topic.

Its not like a whale like this, who is the biggest loser in the games by a landslide cant be difficult to play against-especially when being deepstacked+ out of position. Lags/whales are often gamblers, many are gambling addicts with severly hurt level of discipline. This means that they can certainly have accumulated some good poker skills, both theoretical and practical: but they are still huge losers in the games due to their lack of discipline and urge to make -EV gambles for stacks when they get bored. Whale in this hand actually have alot in common with you, even if you may not realize it yourself.

So its important to not mix things up, because being a whale/lag/spewy lag (whatever term you prefer to use)+ being difficult to play against its not contradictory statements.Just because a certain player is a losing player doesent neccesarily mean he is easy to play against all the time. Whales in particular is often very fearless because they dont care about losing money, wich of course is a very valuable tool to have as a pokerplayer because they can and will put people into uncomfortable close marginal spots with huge bets/raises.

What is his typical range for 3betting an UTG opener when there is a straddle (and especially when that's you) and what is your opening range here?

I mean if we don't care about the player then it's the biggest standard call I've ever seen but depending on these things it could be a 4bet, call or even fold for that matter. If his nitty mode is really really nitty then you could argue you're out of position against a superior range and straight up fold. If he's tarding up then obvious 4bet/get it in spot.

But this **** can get kind of dangerous because if you're adjusting for the wrong range you're actually lighting up money and if he changes it up rather frequently you really need to guess right or he ends up on top. In cases where you're not sure, just go to default play, call here and expect him to have a reasonable amount of bluffs and play flops accordingly. One time you're going to be run over, the other time you'll catch him bluffing and you won't know when but deviating against such a polarizing player is very dangerous.

Oh and 6betme you seem mad because someone called a lag a whale because he happens to be one and you want to defend a fellow lagtard. The advantage this guy has over you is that he knows he spews it up and loses money because of it but is fine with it, in other words he can reflect properly.

Kelvis: my UTG range with him and another whale behind me is pretty tight. Something like 88+,KJs+,AQ+ and when i get 200 BB+ deep i sprinkle in some of the best suited connectors for board coverage and mixing it up purposes like 9-10 suited or J-10 suited.

Villain is hard to put on a concrete accurate 3 bet range, because his actual range depends on his mood as you also points out. Like he can play tight for 2 hours, then suddenly figure out he is bored and just 3 betting 6-7 suited in position just because he havent got the chance to play a big pot in a while and his itching to gamble gets the best of him.

But something like 1010+ KJ/KQ suited a non static amount of the time- sometimes he auto 3 bets them,sometimes he never 3 bets them, AQ suited/all AK combos+ a constantly changing amount of light 3 bets with suited connectors. Its actually pretty damn hard as you start to realize to put him on an accurate 3 bet range in any given situation, i will give him that compliment. Just because he is mixing up his percentages and frequenzies pretty good- even if its not a planned strategy from him, rather than a consuequence of his unpredictable gambling tendencies.

Thread is interesting so far, with several posters chiming in being on both side of the fence regarding flatting or 4 betting/jamming.

I love how I write a 500 word essay explaining how 4bet/folding is, in my opinion, the best play, and rather than respond to that, you choose to respond to the 1 sentence I make questioning whether or not he's actually 50k down.

Like you're clearly more interested in talking sh*t than you are with actually analysing the hand. Neither Petrucci nor Kelvis actually responded to my analysis of the 4bet/fold suggestion.