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Old 05-02-2021, 02:42 PM   #1
crsseyed
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Ugh turn play in 2/5

Primarily concerned with turn action here tho feel free to comment on any action.

7 handed covid tables, 2/5. All players experienced/competent.

UTG+1 ($1200) opens to 15 (his standard open)
UTG +2 calls
Hero $1100 calls w/Kh9h
rest of table calls (stack sizes ~700ish)

UTG well known to me, better than average winning player, can open wide. Range is Med lg SC's, pairs including AA, Suited Qx+

Stacks were deep, I called IP with easy muck to any 3bet

6handed pot $90
Flop 9c5h4s
Checked to me, I bet $50. 4 callers including opener.

Frankly I was confused here w/4 callers (now 5 handed). Can't put anyone on any hand.

Turn (340) Ah
Good card/bad card dilemma..
Checked to me, What's my move?
Don't want to check and get bet off hand, Don't want to bet too large and get raised and have to fold my equity. Don't honestly feel I have best hand here 5 handed..
I bet $50 again to attempt to control pot size and see cheap river. 3 people call, gets back to preflop raiser(540 pot size) who goes all in for 1k

My move?
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Old 05-02-2021, 04:02 PM   #2
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

Seems like an ez fold with 8-9 outs and one to go. I'd check back the turn.

Not sure what position you're in. If BTN and passive blinds, calling pre is ok, otherwise I'd fold.
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Old 05-02-2021, 04:11 PM   #3
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

Preflop I assume you are talking about the range for UTG+1. It looks like UTG must be the person that folded.

Turn should be a check for exactly the reasons you mention. You added the nut flush draw and after the flop action it's very unlikely you have the best hand. Trying a small bet for pot control is too likely to induce a raise. Plus, most of the people in the hand must have already checked, so the risk of a bet should be minimal.

I would be fairly suspicious on the flop but with TPGK I would go ahead and bet. This is as much a probe bet as a value bet.

As played you have to make an annoyed fold. It's too likely he has some AX and you need to improve to two pair+, which your not getting odds on. The original opener could be making a move but it's too risky to stick around. He could be making a move with JJ/TT and still have you beat so far anyways.
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Old 05-02-2021, 04:39 PM   #4
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

Check the turn for the reasons you stated, reevaluate on the river. Not too concerned with a c/r, but a stray A seems very likely.
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Old 05-02-2021, 04:49 PM   #5
jdr0317
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Ugh turn play in 2/5

What position are you? Preflop call is dubious. Especially if youíre going to be lost OOP on a lot of run outs.

Also bet flop smaller. This actually lets you get value and clean up some hands that youíd rather fold out for a cheaper price.

Definitely donít bet 1/7th pot on this turn card. A deep stack could easily be seeing this as an invitation to blow you off a middling hand.

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Last edited by jdr0317; 05-02-2021 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 05-02-2021, 04:56 PM   #6
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

Preflop is a 3 bet or fold, depending how really loose the pfr is. If he is really raising Qxo pf in EP, then it is more of a 3bet. Would check the flop. As Bobby Hoff stated in HOH, you have TP. Big whoop.

You picked up some equity on the turn. See a free card.
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Old 05-02-2021, 06:43 PM   #7
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

Ace is a pretty bad card for you as it completes a lot of two pairs like A9,A5,A4. Seems as if PFR may have had A5/A4 or AK that decided to float flop.
Turn bet is so bad when you pick up this much equity and you have a decent hand with showdown value. We can’t bet aggressively into 4 other players here on the turn. We’re basically turning a great bluff catcher with terrific equity into a bluff. It’s sucks so hard to be raised, which is why we shouldn’t bet.
Now we have to fold, unfortunately, when we could have just checked and probably gotten to the river for free.

Last edited by ChaosInEquilibrium; 05-02-2021 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 05-02-2021, 08:21 PM   #8
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

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Originally Posted by QuadJ View Post
Preflop I assume you are talking about the range for UTG+1. It looks like UTG must be the person that folded.
Whoops yes
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Old 05-02-2021, 08:25 PM   #9
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

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Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
..... Would check the flop. As Bobby Hoff stated in HOH, you have TP. Big whoop.
Considered this but I was conflicted. Aren't we hating almost every card in the deck on turn except K or 9 tho?
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Old 05-02-2021, 08:28 PM   #10
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

I agree with fold or 3bet preflop. You donít want to call here. There are not many flops that will leave you liking your hand in a pot that is clearly going multi-way like this.

On the flop, when I get called by the opener Iím proceeding with extreme caution. This would probably be different if everything was the same except that the opener gave up and folded. I would not be surprised after the turn action if he had AA.
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Old 05-02-2021, 08:41 PM   #11
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

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Originally Posted by ChaosInEquilibrium View Post
....
Turn bet is so bad when you pick up this much equity and you have a decent hand with showdown value. We canít bet aggressively into 4 other players here on the turn. Weíre basically turning a great bluff catcher with terrific equity into a bluff. Itís sucks so hard to be raised, which is why we shouldnít bet.....
This was a hard decision for me. But if we have "a great bluff catcher with terrific equity" (agreed) should we be afraid when raised?

Does my small bloat bet here change remaining players betting or bet size tendencies? I wasn't sure of that answer here.
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Old 05-02-2021, 08:50 PM   #12
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

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Originally Posted by QuadJ View Post
.....
As played you have to make an annoyed fold. It's too likely he has some AX and you need to improve to two pair+, which your not getting odds on. The original opener could be making a move but it's too risky to stick around. He could be making a move with JJ/TT and still have you beat so far anyways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosInEquilibrium View Post
Ace is a pretty bad card for you as it completes a lot of two pairs like A9,A5,A4. Seems as if PFR may have had A5/A4 or AK that decided to float flop.....

....Now we have to fold, unfortunately, when we could have just checked and probably gotten to the river for free.
This spot really made me think(I do have a tendency to overthink ha). IMO snap fold if any other player than original raiser shoved.

And wouldn't always original raiser who check/called flop bet this turn 5 handed if he had made hand (set/2 pair) with flush/straight draws out there?
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Old 05-02-2021, 09:01 PM   #13
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

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Originally Posted by CallMeVernon View Post
On the flop, when I get called by the opener Iím proceeding with extreme caution. This would probably be different if everything was the same except that the opener gave up and folded. I would not be surprised after the turn action if he had AA.
I wondered about this. My thought: Wouldn't a villain here almost always check/raise flop w/AA and a $50bet and 3 callers ($290 when action returns to him) on this flop?
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Old 05-02-2021, 09:17 PM   #14
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

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Originally Posted by crsseyed View Post
This was a hard decision for me. But if we have "a great bluff catcher with terrific equity" (agreed) should we be afraid when raised?

Does my small bloat bet here change remaining players betting or bet size tendencies? I wasn't sure of that answer here.
Well, we have 30% equity against Ax and 22% against two pair A5/A4, so we can certainly call a pot-sized raise. I don’t think we can call this over bet raise from PFR though. What do we think he has here? I honestly wouldn’t be surprised to see him turn over AK. He’d probably take AK for a check/call on the flop. Then he wants to raise turn for protection after your puny bet which looks quite weak.

I think your small bet increases the chances that you get raised light by a player in the field who has a bluffing hand, or any player who has even Ax might raise for value. Your bet size looks quite transparent as a draw trying to set its price. Some well-known coaching sites like CLP talk about how the same-size bet on the turn (equal to flop bet) is a sizing tell that indicates weakness.
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Old 05-02-2021, 09:32 PM   #15
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

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Originally Posted by ChaosInEquilibrium View Post
...What do we think he has here? I honestly wouldnít be surprised to see him turn over AK. Heíd probably take AK for a check/call on the flop. Then he wants to raise turn for protection after your puny bet which looks quite weak.
This also was a thought of mine.

I respect your posts, do me a favor and give me an honest answer here:

If you personally had AK here and checked/called flop and Ah hit the turn 5 handed on 9c5h4s board would you go for turn check/raise in hand with no true assertive action yet from any callers? Or would you bet outright?


IME villain's (and correct play) would be to bet outright, not go for check raise.
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Old 05-02-2021, 09:34 PM   #16
CallMeVernon
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

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Originally Posted by crsseyed View Post
I wondered about this. My thought: Wouldn't a villain here almost always check/raise flop w/AA and a $50bet and 3 callers ($290 when action returns to him) on this flop?
No, because with that many callers he has to be concerned that someone could be slowplaying something. He also might be waiting for a blank turn to commit more money.

One of my biggest leaks when I was younger was trying to read Villainsí range based on how I would play. It doesnít work. As long as there exists some kind of rationale for playing a hand a certain way that is consistent with how Villain might be thinking, you canít take it out of his range.
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Old 05-02-2021, 09:55 PM   #17
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

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Originally Posted by crsseyed View Post
This also was a thought of mine.

I respect your posts, do me a favor and give me an honest answer here:

If you personally had AK here and checked/called flop and Ah hit the turn 5 handed on 9c5h4s board would you go for turn check/raise in hand with no true assertive action yet from any callers? Or would you bet outright?


IME villain's (and correct play) would be to bet outright, not go for check raise.
I might bet out, but I might sometimes x/raise your tiny bet to a smaller size, like $350. Iíd never x/call with AK give your small bet size. I see your point if you are questioning why the Villain raised so large. It does seem like heís begging for a fold.

Iím not sure where this hand history is headed. If you called his raise, putting him on 67 or JTh thatís pretty sick. I donít know if I would have the courage to call off here based off a sizing tell.
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Old 05-03-2021, 04:25 PM   #18
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

If I decide to flat w/ this hand, which I don't unless maybe I'm on BTN and odds are fantastic, I am check/calling flop.

As played, I check turn with all that equity. I'm never betting small here unless my plan is to induce, which it wouldn't be. If you are going to bet the turn, actually bet it

As played, fold or gamble, but I've got so little invested that I snap fold. Plus, don't you still have three players behind you? Gross, just fold. Who cares what UTG+1 might be bluffing with -- if at all.
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Old 05-04-2021, 06:20 AM   #19
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

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Considered this but I was conflicted. Aren't we hating almost every card in the deck on turn except K or 9 tho?
That's why you want to check it. You're either going to win a small pot or lose a big one with this hand. It isn't about the number of hands you win, it is about the amount of money you win.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:24 AM   #20
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

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Originally Posted by crsseyed View Post
This also was a thought of mine.



I respect your posts, do me a favor and give me an honest answer here:



If you personally had AK here and checked/called flop and Ah hit the turn 5 handed on 9c5h4s board would you go for turn check/raise in hand with no true assertive action yet from any callers? Or would you bet outright?





IME villain's (and correct play) would be to bet outright, not go for check raise.

Well villain also has another option: let his opponent barrel off when he has AK. Then he sees his opponent bet a size that makes it obvious that he doesnít have AK beat, and he goes for an audible and check raises. You really screwed yourself in this hand with your turn microbet.


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Old 05-04-2021, 03:53 PM   #21
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

I don't hate a turn bet, we can fold some better hands with a triple barrel, but sizing needs to be closer to half pot. $50 is asking for trouble.

And while its hard to put our opponents on a hand we are still up against ax or better a lot.
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Old 05-04-2021, 05:00 PM   #22
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

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Originally Posted by crsseyed View Post
Primarily concerned with turn action here tho feel free to comment on any action.

6handed pot $90
Flop 9c5h4s
Checked to me, I bet $50. 4 callers including opener.
With that particular flop, 9c5h4s, every card below a 9 on the turn completes a possible straight, while every card above is an overcard. Mathematically, this may be the single most dynamic of all possible rainbow flops. I think your flop bet was seriously ambitious.

In addition, K9s (the old sawmill hand) facing a raise and an overcall is for me an instamuck. With an overcall, you need a better hand than just to call, and in the field, a 3 Bet would be preferred.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:26 PM   #23
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

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With that particular flop, 9c5h4s, every card below a 9 on the turn completes a possible straight, while every card above is an overcard. Mathematically, this may be the single most dynamic of all possible rainbow flops. I think your flop bet was seriously ambitious.
I was conflicted on this part of the hand also. But my reasoning was that here it was very likely I had the best hand after initial raiser checked flop 6 handed. Of course I'm behind A9 and 55/44 sets, and TT but I was sure JJ+ would have 3 bet preflop after (small) preflop raise and call. So IMO betting here was correct. I agree completely that I hate all turn cards except rare K or 9.

Agree or disagree with my analysis?
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:57 PM   #24
ChaosInEquilibrium
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

Your preflop call is marginal, but OK assuming there isn't a high likelihood of facing a 3bet from the BTN or blinds. Assuming the table is passive preflop, I don't mind it.

Your flop bet is pretty standard given that you're sitting in the CO. Don't understand the reason for pushback.

However, your OP was missing quite a bit of information about the flop action. You said that you were called in 4 spots including UTG+1 opener. Which were the other 3 spots that called? Did BTN call? Or did you manage to buy yourself position with your flop bet, and have SB/BB/UTG+2 as the 3 other callers?

I assume BTN did call and then 2 of SB/BB/UTG+2 also called. Frankly, BTNs hand looks precisely like 76/TT/9x. Doubt he's calling with a gutshot or 5x/4x, since it's too risky for him to call next to act when the blinds have yet to act. You said table was generally competent, right? Then BTN should have a fairly strong range here.

UTG+1 PFRs hand looks exactly like AK/AQ after he calls the flop bet, IMO.

If table is playing relatively loose and splashy (gambooly), I'd assume the other 2 of SB/BB/UTG+2 could have something like {9x,76,65,86,...} or something weak of that nature.

If the table is more competent and tight postflop (i.e., players aren't likely to call flop with a gutshot or 5x hand from OOP), then alarm bells should be ringing after you get called in 4 spots.

So, to summarize (IMO) your preflop play is marginal and probably losing play if you aren't comfortable navigating postflop spots. I'd argue you aren't comfortable navigating postflop spots, partly due to this comment:


Quote:
Originally Posted by crsseyed View Post
Frankly I was confused here w/4 callers (now 5 handed). Can't put anyone on any hand.
?
You've got to have a plan about what sorts of hands you might be up against after the flop action. If you're feeling lost in postflop spots, then it's probably wise to tighten up your preflop hand selection.

Your flop bet is fine, but after you get called in 4 spots its time to shut it down on almost any turn card (except a K/9). You were hoping to get it heads up. That plan failed, now time to move on.

Your turn micro-bet is frankly really awful, given the multiway nature of the hand, given that UTG+1's hand looks a lot like AK/AQ, and given the fact that any of the field might have hit two pair if they're sitting there with A5/A4 (hands that seem fairly likely to be within their range after the multiway flop action -- there's only so many combos of 9x, 76 available, after all).

Presumably if you check, you just have to hope BTN will check (and if he has 9x/TT/76, he's gonna check every time). Just check turn and take your free river card. Bet on turn is so, so, so bad. (No offense.)

Last edited by ChaosInEquilibrium; 05-04-2021 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 05-05-2021, 03:02 PM   #25
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Re: Ugh turn play in 2/5

You made three decisions and they were all incorrect imo. Calling pre isn't that bad but it's not a winning play. K9s can't make the nuts and the flushes and straights it does make are prime for being coolers. Fold or 3bet pre.

Flop is a check, it doesn't matter if you have the best hand now almost every runout will be a bad one so you are bloating a pot that is going to be difficult to play and will put you in tons of terrible spots on turns and rivers.

Turn bet is inexcusable. Idk what else to call it. It's just terrible. If your goal was to be put in a tough spot this is how you would play the hand
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