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Old 07-11-2018, 01:24 AM   #1
krilleater
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Two Pair Facing Bad Turn

This hand at 1/3 bothered me the other night and I wish I'd known what to do better.

Game is late and players are very loose at this point. V1 in SB with $200 is a bit of a maniac who loves to chase draws or shove random pairs (ex. I've seen him shove pocket 9s on a 8 10 Q flop). V2 has been running really well and playing lots of hands but folding when he doesn't flop well (covers). Hero is doing poorly and tilting slightly ($300).

Straddle is on for $10, SB calls, I call from HJ with 3d4d, V2 in CO raises to 20, BTN folds, SB and I call.

Flop 3c4sTd

SB bets $20, I raise to $55, CO calls, SB calls

At this point, I'm pretty confident I have the best hand. TT is very unlikely based on preflop action and I block 33 or 44. Most likely holdings are TPTK and/or some random draw.

Turn 5c

SB shoves all in ($125 more)

Obviously this turn isn't a great card in that gutshots got there (A2 or 67) but it also brings in a club draw which I've seen V1 bet aggressively plenty of times before.

Hero?

Note: CO looks very checked out and unlikely to call the hand.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:59 AM   #2
Minatorr
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Re: Two Pair Facing Bad Turn

You can start by folding pre both times
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:33 AM   #3
BIoodRose
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Re: Two Pair Facing Bad Turn

So button straddle is on? If you are going to play this hand, you need to start by raising, otherwise fold. as played, I guess I don't detest calling here closing the action but you will get into trouble from time to time.

As played, You will want to size bigger on the flop. The pot looks like $80 before any money goes in, pot size bet after SB $20 is ~$120. You should see SB bet as a check, straddle is on for $10, and $20 now is essentially 2 bbs, not much of a bet at all. Size up to $90+ is a good start. As played, if you don't believe the two behind will ever call, you are calling $125 into $425, needing around 23% equity, you probably should just call off here. I will go out there and admit, if I play this hand the same way, I am probably going broke here if I honestly think the 2 behind will not call.
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:24 AM   #4
lalaLove
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Re: Two Pair Facing Bad Turn

You don’t need to be playing this hand from the HJ pretty much ever. Also, It’s significantly worse in this spot since the straddle is on making the game play more shallow than it already is.

As played size the flop raise larger maybe 80 or 90 which will set you up for a nice turn shove. On turn you are never folding to the SB shove, just ship over it since calling his bet will commit us anyway.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:20 AM   #5
shorn7
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Re: Two Pair Facing Bad Turn

Fold pre both times as Minatorr said. Also if you feel even semi tilted, take a break to cool off and/or rack up and leave. Trust me...you will NOT play your A-game in the frame of mind and are more likely than not to blowtorch the $300 in front of you.

AP, I think you have to call the shove as given there are only 5 set combos out there (one for 33 and 44; 3 for TT) and it is unlikely that he has a str8 as leading with a gutter and calling a raise doesn't make sense, his most likely holding is something like AT or maybe 65 that now has a two pair draw.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:00 PM   #6
gobbledygeek
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Re: Two Pair Facing Bad Turn

Preflop is horrible both times (super easy folds both times, imo), but I'm guessing you know that and are simply tilting your money away.

SPR is about 4.5. We're likely committed with bottom two in this spot, but due to non-drawyness of board we could attempt to get in stacks over 3 streets (which will also allow us to fold on the river if we get counterfeited). I'd probably just flat the donk because I'm not looking to blow anyone out of the pot at this point and would be totally fine with the CO raising if he actually has a hand / wants to get out-of-line, plus we're cool with maniac maniacing on the turn.

I have no idea why TT is unlikely due to preflop action, and we should actually start considering it when CO takes a cold raise to the face; what, we think CO has a draw? SB is more likely to have a draw given action.

Anyways, this is a fairly blankish turn (what, someone was on a gutshot?). Pot is now a huge $225 and we have just $225 left against the CO (who is attempting to play well) and just $125 against the maniac. Against the maniac, trivial call at this point, and I also think that's better than raising as it may entice the CO with an overpair (and we don't want to blow that out I don't think even though he has counterfeiting outs).

You basically made your bed preflop and now have to lie in it.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:46 PM   #7
lalaLove
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Re: Two Pair Facing Bad Turn

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Preflop is horrible both times (super easy folds both times, imo), but I'm guessing you know that and are simply tilting your money away.

SPR is about 4.5. We're likely committed with bottom two in this spot, but due to non-drawyness of board we could attempt to get in stacks over 3 streets (which will also allow us to fold on the river if we get counterfeited). I'd probably just flat the donk because I'm not looking to blow anyone out of the pot at this point and would be totally fine with the CO raising if he actually has a hand / wants to get out-of-line, plus we're cool with maniac maniacing on the turn.

I have no idea why TT is unlikely due to preflop action, and we should actually start considering it when CO takes a cold raise to the face; what, we think CO has a draw? SB is more likely to have a draw given action.

Anyways, this is a fairly blankish turn (what, someone was on a gutshot?). Pot is now a huge $225 and we have just $225 left against the CO (who is attempting to play well) and just $125 against the maniac. Against the maniac, trivial call at this point, and I also think that's better than raising as it may entice the CO with an overpair (and we don't want to blow that out I don't think even though he has counterfeiting outs).

You basically made your bed preflop and now have to lie in it.

GcluelessNLnoobG
I think this particular hand (bottom two) benefits from shipping here vastly more than flat calling. To me this hand is a classic illustration of one of the key concepts from Jandas book. Basically a raise or bet is both to build the pot In case we win, and to deny our opponents from realizing equity. Our particular hand in this situation benefits immensely from both of these conditions.

I like your logic of keeping CO in the pot a lot more if we were holding a less vulnerable hand like the nut straight. However a flat call here with bottom two just makes CO’s life way too easy and we actually don’t gain much by letting him see a cheap river.
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Old 07-12-2018, 11:07 AM   #8
gobbledygeek
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Re: Two Pair Facing Bad Turn

Quote:
Originally Posted by lalaLove View Post
I like your logic of keeping CO in the pot a lot more if we were holding a less vulnerable hand like the nut straight. However a flat call here with bottom two just makes CO’s life way too easy and we actually don’t gain much by letting him see a cheap river.
If I've done the math right, if we flat then CO will be being asked to call $125 to win the $475 in the pot, so 3.8:1 odds. Assuming we're ahead and he has an overpair, he has 8 outs, so he needs ~5:1 odds. Even throwing in our $100 remaining on the river (which I doubt we're doing if counterfeited) he's still not quite there. So I think we're fine with inviting him along, especially since we make money off him if we happen to be behind the maniac.

GimoG
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Old 07-14-2018, 06:37 PM   #9
krilleater
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Re: Two Pair Facing Bad Turn

Results:

I called, CO folded and and SB flips over A2o for the gutshot.

I meant that SB doesn't have TT in this situation (he's definitely 3-betting that preflop based on his tendencies). CO could, but I doubted it.

In retrospect, I think I could have folded here. SB is a very transparent player and his donk range on the *turn* is heavily value-heavy.

Obviously, fold pre both times. I was tilting.
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Old 07-14-2018, 07:32 PM   #10
AllTheCheese
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Re: Two Pair Facing Bad Turn

The first time is of course a no-brainer fold preflop.

That said, the second time is a clear call. At 6.5:1, you don't even have to come close to realizing your postflop equity threeway and your position is actually pretty good (relative position + direct position against the spewtard). Snowie's preflop advisor recommends calling a 2.5x LJ open in the BB with 34s, which is considerably more speculative than Hero's second call itt.
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