Hero is 20something white guy dressed sharp. A reg but never played with these Villains. Sat down with $200 (waiting for 1/2).

First hand is about an hour after sitting down, Hero is in the BB with A6. V1 - also 20something white guy, has me covered, wearing a hat for the casino's tournament series last year - opens in the CU to $12. Folds to me, and I call. Only previous hand with this guy had him opening in the CU to $12, eventually showed down J8o.

Flop ($25) is A65. I lead out $15 and he calls.

Turn ($55) is 7 I check, looking to induce and c/r. V's range here looks to me like bigger Aces, second pairs, some with straight draws, and perhaps a few flush draws, but not many - some of those probably tending toward combo. draws. V1 checks back, unfortunately.

River ($55) is 3, so any 4 just made a straight, and the flush got there. I reason that no reasonable person should have any 4 here except A4, and there are few combos of that remaining, even if we say he opens all A4o combos. I've seen him try to steal a few pots on the river when checked to in position, and I want to avoid getting check-raised, so I check, intending to snap off just about any bet. V1 bets $40 and I call. Thoughts?



Second hand is about 30 minutes later, this time against a reg I have seen before (but have not played against) who is waiting for a 2/5 seat. He's got me covered with about $300, and is late 20s or early 30s.

Hero is in MP with KJ. The table has been snug, with several guys over 65, so I make a somewhat loose open to $12. HJ calls and BB (V2) calls.

Flop ($36) is 357 Checks through.

Turn is the 5. BB bets out $20, and I call. HJ folds. At this point, his range is quite open: he could have 5x - most likely 54, 56, A5, Ax, Ax, a non-nut flush, simply stabbing, or a pair, something like 78, A7, 88, 99. I have the blocker to the second nut flush and am quite aware that the 2/5 regs at this casino are extremely aggressive and don't hesitate to fire with air when they perceive weakness, so I make the call. HJ folds.

River ($76) is the K, giving me top pair, good kicker. V bets $40, and I make a crying call. Was I being a station here, sacrificing fundamentals to try to capitalize on the overall player pool? I think the river call in a vacuum is okay if he checks turn, but given that he didn't, the river call seems very fishy. The turn call, I think, is downright bad. Thoughts?

H1:

Trivial fold for me preflop. Yeah, he could be opening light like he did last time it was folded to him preflop in LP, but so what? Do we have a postflop plan? When we both whiff the pot, he's going to cbet, and then what? We're going to get tricky OOP when we may or may not be crushed? And if we actually do hit a hand, it's going to be really hard to get paid off OOP against a most likely air range. Just let it go and move on, imo.

Anyways, we lucked out and flopped a monster. SPR is about 7.5, which means in order to play for stacks we need a bet (preferably biggish) to go in on each street. I probably just check/raise the flop. If he has air, he might just shutdown once we call his cbet on the flop (unless he's really barrelly, in which case I'd be fine with check/calling him down). The board is also a little drawy so we could rep that. Basically, we're just hoping he actually has an Ace and hoping to play for real money against that range before the board gets stupid. Really don't like our lead at all, it just enables him to lose $0 with all his air (which he'll most likely cbet if checked to).

Really don't like our turn check either. He could be on a draw and check back; he could be pot controlling with an Ace; etc. Just bet, imo.

As played, I would lean towards a fold the river. He musta called the flop with something, and he didn't bet the turn so it wasn't just to float and steal. If he has a showdownable hand, he most likely checks back. Every draw got there.

Bottom line: don't play speculative hands OOP HU to a raiser.

GimoG

H2:

Table certainly seems snug if a small raise in MP manages to get this 3ways. But KJo is way too loose for me, and we're often simply limiting the playing field to hands that crush ours, OOP to boot. I just fold.

I cbet the flop. We're only against two opponents and both could have easily whiffed this flop and will have to fold to a bet, often folding better hands (Ax, better K, better J). I'd go $15 - $20 and be done with it UI if called (perhaps double barreling a card we can rep on the turn).

Turn call is really meh, imo. We could already drawing dead, or have really bad RIO on some of our "outs". Our IO suck (we're going to get payed off by a worse hand on a 4-to-a-flush board?). I fold.

I don't mind the crying call on the river. He could be value betting worse or continuing thru with a bluff.

GcluelessNLnoobG

H1: Threebet to $35-40 preflop. AP, x/r flop. AP, lead turn big ($45ish). AP, lead river. I don't like any of this checking to induce because he frequently just has a somewhat marginal hand, like a bad A or a pocket pair 77-KK, something like that. I'd rather just play like I would if I had a big draw.

H2: Probably cbet, but checking is reasonable too. Turn call is dreadful. Your outs are all dirty and you're never winning with K high because he's betting the river when that is the case, and if checked to OTR you will rep nothing with a bluff.

GG is such a nit, lol. Opening KJ in MP is fine even if you get several callers. Where hands can and can't be opened from on a normal table has more to do with the risk of getting threebet and not even seeing a flop. When threebetting ~never happens you can relax your standards somewhat.

Hand 1 - 3bet pre IMO. CO opens are pretty wide and you have a blocker to AA with your suited A. Also if he does have a bigger A you will win the pot a lot with a C-bet and you can put him in tough spots on a lot of flops. Flop is a Check raise - donking here is fine if he likes to raise donks. Turn is a mandatory bet - you want to trying to get stacks in. River is bad as it kills all your action. Check call is fine.


Hand 2 - is a fold pre - This hand is an open in CO and maybe HJ if it folds to you.
Fold turn. As played calling is fine.
IF it was suited you can open in MP if you want. Folding is fine as well.

Forgot to comment on H2 river call, it's fine. The turn call is the issue.

If you're folding A6s to a loose CO open, what are you calling?

Snap call, check-raise flop and fire away.

Hand 2 is a snap fold preflop and a snap fold on the turn.

Threebetting is a ton better than calling, A6s has good playability multiway but not heads up OOP. There are not many flops you're going to be that thrilled with. Threebetting is better because:

- You're punishing him for loose opening. If he's opened J8o here again, he doesn't really GAF if you call A6s, but he does GAF if you threebet him.

- You're leveraging your removal. The fact that you're making it harder for him to have hands like AA, AK, AQ is a big asset if you threebet, but isn't all that relevant when flatting.

I would rather flat pre with connected hands that have more playability across a variety of runouts, like KJo or T9s, or with hands that can just hit the flop very hard, like pocket pairs.

Well, first off it looks like his table plays *a lot* different than mine. "Opens in the CO", lol, I don't even know what that phrase means. A $12 raise in MP manages to get this just 3ways and only OOP to one player? $12 is called a "limp" at my table. So there's that.

Second, would you agree that OP butchered both of these hands postflop? If so, he probably shouldn't be playing marginal hands from anywhere as they are highly unlikely to be profitable for him.

GimoG

Unless you are an expert (which OP has clearly showed he is not with the way he played these hands postflop, imo), then playing speculative hands OOP HU to the preflop aggressor is simply unprofitable, period. Fold, and wait for a profitable spot.

GimoG

Well I mean "opens in the CO and folds to BB" was in the hand description, can probably adjust for that before giving advice.

I think it's a slippery slope to be giving advice not of what the best play is, but of what you think the best play is based on your judgement of their skill level. The advice in these threads is, or should be, advice for random people reading them, rather than advice tailored for OP specifically.

I also think the instruction set for what to do with A6s here is pretty simple. Threebet, bet basically every flop (Axx excepted, perhaps), hope they fold. Jam turn if you have equity, otherwise c/f it. What to do if you call A6s is significantly more complicated.

Re raising in MP and having ~everyone call, that's not ideal with KJo but I honestly think you're still +EV there. It's not like calling a 6BB raise out of position where because you face a PFR, your chance of being dominated is higher. The hand also plays pretty easily many ways: you fold if you don't flop a K or J. OP went off script in that hand.

I agree that the hand is trivial to play when we're lucky enough to miss.

But it becomes very difficult to play when we hit just TP.

GimoG

Well, this is the lowest stakes forum that you can play live, so in many ways a beginner type level. i.e. not a bad default to target regarding advice.

But unless you're expert, most would still be better off folding preflop in this case. This situation is extremely marginal at best, which leaves no room for error to make it profitable.

GimoG

this

if you're going to fold A6s to a loose cutoff open, you might as well skip going to the casino and instead just stay at home and shovel your money into the fireplace.

folding KJo in MP unopened is understandable but certainly not optimal.

Hand 1:

I don't understand the flop donk bet:
- I expect him to cbet here a ton and so we make more $ by c/r.
- a very solid strategy in dealing with loose CO opens is to call pre and c/r flops.
- there are a lot of draws we would rather c/r than lead or c/c and we'll mostly play our 1p hands, trip A, and Ahi as c/c, so we need to be playing our value as a check/raise.
- flop c/r gets the most value out of his good aces that will bet/call.

Hand 2:

I think not c-betting flop is fine. I don't think we get enough folds on this board and we have very little equity when called. however, once we do that we are just giving up and so calling turn is not so great.

Lol.

So, if I've interpreted this statement correctly, you're actually suggesting that if someone consistently folds speculative hands like A6s OOP HU to a LP raise that not only is it impossible for them to be a long term winner, but in fact they can only be a long term huge loser?

Gseriously?winsawaredforexaggerationoftheyear,imoG

I may have been going for a little bit of comedic gold ... however I do think that if you can't play A6s against an opponent you KNOW is raising >50% of hands in the CO then yes, you are losing money by definition.

the failure I see in your logic is that you are rigidly defining A6s as "speculative" (which is fair against a typical 13/10 player) when in this situation it is clearly a value hand against his range.

Passing on certain situations which an expert can make +EV whereas a non-expert could easily make -EV (Q: Based on play, where do you think OP falls?) is hardly going to define whether they can have long term success in the game (and your hyperbole goes even further to suggest that they could only be long term losers).

Gfoldingisperfectlyfine,evenforlongtermwinners;if* you*(assumedcrusher)wanttocontinue,that'sfinetooG