2/5 300 max

Hero ($650) white male 60's, playing tight, almost always raising going into a pot

V1 ($440) white female 30's limps a lot pre with connected and 1 gappers. I saw her show down a 24 suited she played UTG. I've also seen her drop $300 when she had AK, flopped an A when another player hit 2 pair and raised the turn and gii on the river.

V2 ($435) white female 30's limps a lot pre with connected and 1 gappers. I haven't seen her win or lose any big pots or do anything particularly noteworthy. Seems to be patient, more so than V1 who is the looser of the two.

On to the hand
V1 UTG limps

V2 MP limps

Hero in CO A10 for some reason I limped in here, probably should have raised with only the limpers in front of me.

SB calls
BB checks
Pot $20

Flop QJ4

V1 bets $30
V2 calls
Hero?

Raise or fold pre.

I guess that I'd call the flop.
The HH that suggests that she might give you a lot of value on heart turns.

Hero calls the turn
SB folds
BB folds

Pot $110

Turn K

Board is now QJ4K

V1 checks
V2 checks
Hero, I like my straight and since they've both checked I'm thinking flush draws.
so I bet $100

V1 calls
V2 c/r all-in

Hero?

Happily calls.

Cmon man, you gotta have a better read than that. How often tonight has V1 come out firing like that? Does she keep firing or does she tend to check the turn?

Bet size is significant. This is probably not a feeler bet with TP. More likely a made flush or a semi-bluff. If she's crafty she could be bombing a set. Is she crafty?

You're doing sorta OK OTF, you have decent equity dealt to the river. Question is, if she's gonna let you get that far.

Couple of different ways to maximize value OTF. One, as IRTM suggested, is to play for IO by calling. You're basically just playing for the next card and I agree, calling here is probably a decent deal.

The other way is to raise, figuring you are likely to get two cards for your money (she doesn't have the nuts, right?) might be able to squeeze her for some fold equity too. This approach maximizes your equity through the river, assuming she doesn't spaz out on you. I kind of like the raise here but have no idea if that's the optimal play.

But really, you should have much better reads on these ladies, especially V1. You need more than an opening range, right? You need to know how often she comes out firing like this, what that bet sizing means. How aggressive or passive she is on the turn. How likely she is to shove over your theoretical raise. Makes this hand way easier to play.

No way is v1 risking turn checking through with a flush.

I meant V2. But neither for that matter.

V1 has a tendency to bet the flop and then check the turn when weak. So this was not unusual. I was definitely worried about the c/r by V2.

So V-2 checks twice? The turn check is really confusing since I would think if she was trapping then once V-1 checks the turn after donking the flop that she would bet all baby flushes and sets. But she checks, you have the nut blocker so she's not sitting on the nuts. Weird spot. Then you add V-1 who I'm assuming is sitting there with Kh. You have to call $300 to win $645 and that's not taking in to account V-1 who I assume is going to fold now. V-2 hasn't gotten out of line all night you say. All that just doesn't make sense to me, I don't see her flatting a baby flush on flop and then checking it on turn knowing you can easily check it back in position and any heart kills her.

I call and if I'm wrong I got outs. Her line makes zero sense with a flush. Only flush I see her having is K10h with royal flush draw and wants to see river, any royal flush promos there? I know my local casino it's up over 2k for a certain suits and everyone thinks they can hit it. Idk I'm probably getting off track here but I call and expect to be good here.

Grunch

Raising would be better PF, but I can't hate on the passive "leave there ranges super wide small-ball" limp. It's certainly not max EV, but it's still a solid line IMHO. OTF I'm always raising this to something almost a post sized bet. 30+30+20=$80. Plus you're $30 when you match. So like $120-$130 total flop raise. If called I discount all made hands and likely jam. If raised you'll likely not be getting the correct price to call.

I see. So we see merit in checking to keep them both in the hand. Gotcha.

V2 is pretty strong. Weird line but this is her being greedy. Wouldn't be surprised to see her on any flush, really. But KThh and T9hh could well make her spaz out like this.

Results?

Its a solid "Play like a weak-passive fit/fold fish" line imo.

The addage "Dont go broke in a limp pot" comes to mind here". The c/r is a healthy over-bet and we're far from nutted. I puke-fold.

happily call, if i lose oh well. i will say people play very funny in limped pots and this could be like an 8 high flush or something.

So I called
V1 announces I'm folding my flush and mucks her cards

river blanks and V2 turns over 68hh for the flush

Yep weak passive fish line but it worked, would of gotten me as well.

A few thoughts...

Both players don't appear to be skilled, so thoughts like "V1 and V2 wouldn't dare let the turn check through when they have a flush" don't hold a lot of water. That's not how these players are thinking. Bad players make bad plays all the time. When they both check, we bet and they raise... their hands are heavily weighted towards flushes IMO.

Also... Why are we bombing the turn? The only river cards we should be afraid of are cards that pair the board and the action thus far doesn't really indicate a lot of sets and two pairs. The K OTT should be scary for Qx and Jx type hands. We should be betting smaller OTT IMO... $60-$80 into $110 seems right to me.

Sizing on turn is definitely very questionable, making calling the shove even worse.

Fair enough re: bad players making illogical plays but I think there is a lot of results oriented thinking here.

Not betting for value with the nut straight and nut flush redraw when checked to IP here is bad IMO. There are plenty of hands we get value from. And with the nut redraw i am not afraid to be check-raised, esp since fish will also do this with inferior hands they think are best or semibluffs.

Although we can't give bad players credit for making correct plays, most fish still bet flushes on this turn, esp after the aggressor slows down. They recognize that allowing a 4th heart to fall is disaster and fear allowing this to happen.

Easy bet/fold spot, v2 is not chk/jamming with 2p/set here. Almost always a made flush and since we r not getting the correct odds I fold

Just a couple things in mind that I see here in the OP and the responses.

The first thing is the forum has been trending towards limping unless you have a big hand pf (JJ+, AK). This is a mistake on several levels. First, you are narrowing your range too much when you raise. If there are any decent players, they are going to know on a T high flop that your range is capped at an OP. If there are any decent players at your table, they will take advantage of you and even the bad ones will put you on AK when you have AK.

Next, the last thing you want to do is keep your villain's ranges wide pf. You want them to narrow their ranges by folding most of the junk and raising what beats you soundly. Don't let 86s see a cheap flop.

After that, most people over estimate their IO with a 4 cards on the board flush, especially on this board. Let's say at best someone has a K high flush on the flop and the fourth heart comes. Are they really believing you're firing in money with a T high flush that you chased?

I dislike the the pf call and am meh at best with the flop call. I can probably drag out $40 on the turn or river if I hit, so it is marginal. Turn I check behind. I now have a hand that has some value at show down and get a free card to hit my draw. No sense in getting blown off my hand.

turn is a super easy fold. He c/r the turn about 0% of the time without a flush. That means you only have 7 outs.

You HAVE to bet that turn. You are ahead of such a huge portion of their ranges and they call with so much you beat. You don't need to get worried about getting "blown off your hand" since turn c/r are so rare at LLSNL.

Just read the villain descriptions. Even easier fold.