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Old 02-10-2019, 11:09 AM   #1
MikeStarr
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Turn bet size?

2/5 game

Hero opens to $20 JsTh in LJ.
Cutoff calls
SB calls.

Cutoff and SB are both huge calling stations. SB even moreso than cutoff.

Flop ($60) JdTc5d. SB checks. Hero bets $40. They both call
Turn ($180) 6s.

Cutoff has $130 left. SB has $350 left.

Whats the bet size you would use, assuming that there's a good chance that the cutoff will call (because that's what stations do), which gives odds to SB if she has the FD. But we also dont want SB to fold Jx or even Tx. Dont ask me to range them because its anyone guess.

They can have any piece of the flop, any draw, overcards...mid pps...ect. I guess I just ranged them...oh well...I dont really call that a range when its that wide.
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Old 02-10-2019, 11:20 AM   #2
KID777777
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Re: Turn bet size?

Any reason why you didn't go bigger on the flop, surely 2 calling stations won't fold any piece of it otf
AP on the turn I'm betting 130 to get called by CO
If SB comes along, we see a river in position and can fold if the calling station shows aggression on obvious rivers
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Old 02-10-2019, 12:16 PM   #3
MogFish
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Re: Turn bet size?

Bump up your raise size pre with the calling stations behind. If you don't feel that you want to commit that much with JTo, probably just fold*pre.

Could go slightly larger on flop because the board is so wet. I actually think its reasonable to rip it for 2x pot on the turn if your reads are correct... CO is probably calling and SB might call with Jx, Tx that doesn't believe you.
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Old 02-10-2019, 12:36 PM   #4
XtraScratch8
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Re: Turn bet size?

I like about a pot sized bet.
$170-180.
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Old 02-10-2019, 12:44 PM   #5
tmo1120
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Re: Turn bet size?

150-180
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Old 02-10-2019, 12:47 PM   #6
Avaritia
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Re: Turn bet size?

Kindly inform the dealer that you would like to wager all of your betting units
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Old 02-11-2019, 11:56 AM   #7
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Re: Turn bet size?

Pre is questionable, as played I also like the overbet all in on turn.
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:25 PM   #8
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Re: Turn bet size?

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Originally Posted by mdelore View Post
Pre is questionable, as played I also like the overbet all in on turn.
No it isn't.

Also please refer to the COTM for any sizing questions.
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:30 PM   #9
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Re: Turn bet size?

I’d go about $140
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:58 PM   #10
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Re: Turn bet size?

Pot flop. Allin turn.
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Old 02-11-2019, 02:19 PM   #11
tmo1120
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Re: Turn bet size?

why does everyone want to bet close to 2X pot OTT? if we bet a psb they are never getting the right price to chase their draw and we can keep some hands in that have very little equity
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Old 02-11-2019, 02:31 PM   #12
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Re: Turn bet size?

I agree that 2x PSB’ing seems like button clicking.
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Old 02-11-2019, 02:53 PM   #13
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Re: Turn bet size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmo1120 View Post
why does everyone want to bet close to 2X pot OTT? if we bet a psb they are never getting the right price to chase their draw and we can keep some hands in that have very little equity
Quote:
Originally Posted by twitcherroo View Post
I agree that 2x PSBíing seems like button clicking.
Lulz... correct.

V's will click-their-call-button.
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Old 02-11-2019, 03:21 PM   #14
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Re: Turn bet size?

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Originally Posted by tmo1120 View Post
why does everyone want to bet close to 2X pot OTT?
Because there are portions of our range that want to maximize fold equity (AKdd, AQdd, KQdd, Q9dd, 89dd, 78dd) and there are other parts of our range that dont care to see a river (pairs, yes even two of them).

This is especially true when we block top pair and when villains ranges consist mostly of draw type hands. A JTxdd flop is one where we want to deny equity as much as possible. This is different from a Q72r flop where we hold 77. The value to be had in the JTxdd example is on the flop/turn, because villains will either hit or miss otr (they either win the pot or fold when they miss, i.e. no value to be had otr). The value in the Q72r example is on flop/turn/river, because villain mostly has top pair.

Theory aside, you are missing out on tons of station value by not overbetting as much as you can in live poker. One of the last sessions I played I tilt 4x shoved otf and got snap called by a bare K high flush draw.
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Old 02-11-2019, 03:53 PM   #15
tmo1120
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Re: Turn bet size?

I see what your saying, but like i said with a psb they are never getting close to the right price with only one card to come

i think what your saying is that if they will call bets sometimes anyways then we should just punish them further, and generating folds is not a bad thing when they are so draw heavy

I just don't mind letting them make -EV calls , perhaps more risky tho
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Old 02-11-2019, 04:16 PM   #16
Minatorr
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Re: Turn bet size?

130-140 ott, dont think SB is calling a 2x shove with KQ/Q9 but will most definitely call a reasonable sized bet

OB shove is ok with AA/KK since we dont block Jx, not sure if J10 makes too much sense as an OB jam unless we think sb calls off K high/ Q high no FD ott
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Old 02-11-2019, 07:26 PM   #17
jshah
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Re: Turn bet size?

The only hands that have you beat are sets. Everything else like draws or TP you can get value from.

I think I shove here since even if you bet $130 to push CO all in, if the SB calls that bet, they have ~220 to commit to a pot of 570 on the river.

Thus, why not put them to the test on the turn, if they have draws, it will put them in a tough spot. A river that completes the flush or straight will put you in a tough spot but you'll be committed either way.
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Old 02-11-2019, 07:59 PM   #18
ralphykid67
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Re: Turn bet size?

Interesting spot given SB's stack size here. If they are both stations then just rip it all in targeting the CO. The SB may be enticed to call off the rest now if/when the CO calls. I don't really see how we get any value (and protection) from the SB otherwise.
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Old 02-11-2019, 08:19 PM   #19
MikeStarr
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Re: Turn bet size?

I bet $200. They both folded. I think jamming is probably fine also. I was just wondering if $150 was better though.
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Old 02-11-2019, 10:50 PM   #20
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Re: Turn bet size?

What do you do on the river if both had called the $200 and a D hits? If you check, pot is $1010 and it’s $150 to call.

What do you do on the river if only the CO called the $200 and a D hits? If you check, pot is $880 and it’s $150 to call.

If you say you call in either of both spots, do just bet the $150 yourself?

These spots are some of the hardest decisions for me. It’s also why I’ve been just shoving - mostly because I hate making mistakes by calling rivers when I know I’m probably supposed to fold. Would just rather bet/overbet and then I have no decision to make. One of hardest spots for me. I end up talking myself into everyone is gonna bluff me and I click call because 1010:150. My fold button tends to malfunction way too often.
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Old 02-12-2019, 04:18 PM   #21
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Re: Turn bet size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdelore View Post
Pre is questionable, as played I also like the overbet all in on turn.

+1

Opening the JTo to 4 big blinds from the LJ ( with <100bb stack) is extremely questionable imo
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Old 02-12-2019, 05:47 PM   #22
wait
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Re: Turn bet size?

Seems like a terrible question to have
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Old 02-12-2019, 07:01 PM   #23
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Re: Turn bet size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
I bet $200. They both folded. I think jamming is probably fine also. I was just wondering if $150 was better though.
$200 seems like awkward sizing, scares V1 more than necessary, openly commits V2 when probably you want to subtly commit V2. What was the logic behind $200? I can $125-130 make sense, or a shove but Iím not really seeing the line for $200.
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Old 02-12-2019, 07:04 PM   #24
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Re: Turn bet size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twitcherroo View Post
$200 seems like awkward sizing, scares V1 more than necessary, openly commits V2 when probably you want to subtly commit V2. What was the logic behind $200? I can $125-130 make sense, or a shove but Iím not really seeing the line for $200.
yup
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Old 02-12-2019, 08:01 PM   #25
MikeStarr
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Re: Turn bet size?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twitcherroo View Post
$200 seems like awkward sizing, scares V1 more than necessary, openly commits V2 when probably you want to subtly commit V2. What was the logic behind $200? I can $125-130 make sense, or a shove but Iím not really seeing the line for $200.
Well, the pot was $180, if I bet $130 to put Cutoff all in and he calls, the SB needs 23% equity to call with a FD. She has about 20% so shes barely making a mistake to call and wont be making a mistake at all if she hits the flush and I pay her off.

When I bet $200, she needs 28% equity to call with the FD. Im not saying $200 is correct by any means, but that was my logic. I think I like just jamming it all in better because I do think she would call with a FD at least half the time.
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