Yeah, as I mentioned in my last post, it's sorta borderline and I guess everyone will draw their line in different places, and of course table dependent and stack dependent. As I say, as stacks get deeper, my tables are typically raisey loose gambooley action enough preflop where I'm slowly moving towards a 0% preflop raising range from almost every position (including sometimes overlimping the Button with monsters, especially with action straddles on).

Gandyes,goodideatoneverraisewithmeinthepotG

Its not so much that we are scared to go multiway with TT as much as it is that we likely arn't getting value preflop.

Furthermore, once we go postflop our ability to bluff goes down significantly with multiple players. Alot of the reason why we can raise TT preflop profitably is that we can successfully bluff some % of the time postflop. In this spot we have to play TT for pure value and we likely can't continue on a VAST number of flops

TT is a bluff on many flops. Part of the reason why TT is profitable is because we can bluff postflop. Multiway we can't

yup and raising bigger should get most crappy offsuit broadway out so we can have better equity HU.

I say that even though straddle called before the jam with QT lol.

Getting the bigger offsuit broadway hands out is only good if they are making a mistake by folding.


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QJ KJ KQ QT JT. All have at least 30% all should fold for $50 right? I mean if we can get everything excect AK to fold we have narrowed V’s range and can play better post.

it is probably a mistake for them to call those hands and play fit/fold.

however, the problem is that if they are folding the above mentioned range(some hands which we fare well against), they are also probably folding much worse hands like SCs and JT-Kt maybe AT.

This means that if they fold those hands and only continue with the better parts of their range they are not making a mistake in calling.

I might do myself if that continues.

We have a top 3% hand.
We have a small blind, a big blind, a straddle and a bunch of fish limping in with wide ranges.
We raise for fat value.
I couldn´t care less that we got limpraised this time.

I really think that´s all that matters.


Hero, you should not question whether or not to raise TT in that spot. You should.
You should question whether or not you should call once you got limp/shoved on and his range tightened up dramatically. You probably shouldn´t.

I wish I still had flopzilla,

Im curious to see how TT fairs 3-4-5 way to the flop with a 20% calling range from Vs (minus the obvious limp/raise and 3bet stuff)

I still contend that the problem with raising this spot is that so often it will go multiway and we are forced to give up on a great number of boards because we simply can't bluff 3-5 people.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
TT	31.20%	184,444	6,419
20%	22.54%	129,200	13,037
15%	25.28%	145,434	13,464
25%	20.98%	120,303	12,188

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
TT	25.25%	148,817	6,210
20%	18.51%	105,240	12,780
15%	20.54%	117,113	13,462
25%	17.30%	98,370	11,969
20%	18.40%	104,466	13,036

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
TT	21.46%	126,254	5,876
20%	15.60%	88,029	12,376
15%	17.42%	98,642	13,016
25%	14.68%	83,025	11,407
20%	15.62%	88,141	12,453
22%	15.22%	86,035	11,851

I suppose by bluffing you mean cbetting TT in a HU pot on AKx boards? you´re not bluffing.

is this AI equity or just to the flop?

Cbetting TT in a HU pot on AKx COULD certainly be a bluff depending on the villains hand/range and our bet size.

My friend, your statement of "we like to raise TT b/c we get to bluff with it sometimes post in heads up pots" is just absolutely ludicrious. Are you really only raising JJ+ for "value" preflop?

You really need to re-evaluate the way you're looking at your preflop game. TT is a massive equity favorite over the MASSIVE limping ranges that these people have.

This is true, but once we raise to 50, alot of those hands we are a massive equity favorite against fold out. this leaves us with a continuing range of hands that either beat us or we run close with (more than likely)

For example, a guy who is limping 75s preflop is good to value bet against because he may call a 3bb-5bb raise preflop, but probably isn't calling a 10bb raise without hands that beat us.

This reminds me of Mike Caro's advice that thinning the field is stupid. Never really made sense to me till I started regularly running into these massively multiway limp/call-fests at live-low-stakes.

Im not saying your necessarily wrong.

I think alot of the confusion and contention in this thread is revolving around a misunderstanding of what a bluff is.

yoU should study bet sizing. you raised much too high pre. Did you base your raise on your hand?

You need to make decisions based on your opponents range, what he will do with his range, and your equity vs that range. Calling because you were a little under 100 big blinds has nothing to do with anything.

You've seen many V's limp/re raise from UTG with worse than TT? That's probably a little exaggerated, but did you see THIS VILLAIN do it with worse? You should play each villain individually. These are usually top premium hands (if not aces). again, read and study the stickies

????

This hand is not complicated. 50 was a little too much but not absurd. It doesn't matter if people call or fold to the raise. TT is good heads up, it's good 3 handed, it's good multiway, it's just a strong hand. 5 or 6 handed you could probably check/fold every time you don't flop a set and still profit, because your margin in pots where you do make a set is so huge. One of the major functions of raising preflop is to increase the stakes postflop. It's like if I said to you "how would you like to play 1/2, but anytime you're going to be dealt TT, we can play 2/5 instead" and you're like "oh no thanks, just 1/2 all the time please".

The only problem here is a psychological one, that you don't like to raise and then the majority of the time abandon the pot postflop, which is what the hand demands in a really loose game.

Mike Caro is a fraud of the highest order who was never good at poker even back in the glory days.

TT is the exact kind of hand that you should be thinning the field with. Taking it against one opponent, you probably are still good when it comes Q95 or J74 or whatever. Against 4, you might as well have like T8 on those boards.

And we would probably have like a 60/40 edge in position versus a single caller. Being HU v that with all the dead $ sounds sweet to me.

Alternatively, you start a limp-call fest preflop to set mine with TT. Straddled pot at this card room usually don't limp around.

Are you telling me you can predict when you can thin the field better than when you can predict someone betting for you in a straddled pot?

If we give them all top 40% with { JJ+, AK } removed as an approximate limping range, you're a small favourite vs 4 opponents on both Q95 two-tone (22.6% equity) and J74 two-tone (24.4% equity). You certainly prefer to be heads up in that kind of spot, but you more than hold your own and flopping a set in a multiway raised pot is a huge score.

I know I harp on about this, but there is nothing at all wrong with TT in a multiway raised pot, the problem is purely an emotional one, that people don't like raising and then losing the pot a large majority of the time.

FWIW, I think 50 is definitely too big, but it also depends on what is considered standard at the time and how deep the average stacks are. In general I wouldn't go over 40.

After he l/rr it's a superclear fold, this is only a call with very specific reads, which you obviously didn't have here.

Raise size is arguable, fold pre to the shove is a trivial decision.

I'm going to have to say that I need more info on this villain to consider folding pre. Where I play I see people do the limp-raise with any pair, some broadways and some suited aces. For this amount of money I expect to see a lot of the smaller pairs and TT is simply too strong. The dead money from the straddler gives me even more incentive to call it off.
I would probably raise a little smaller pre maybe 6x or something. 50 is a bit on the large side. AP unlucky you ran into the goods this time but i bet this guy would do the same with 77 or maybe even lower pairs. He is also going to go after the dead money of the straddler...

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