5/5 NL

Hero in LP with TT($570)
One limp in EP, Villain limps in MP, hero raises to $30
BB, EP, and Villain call (Villain has $600)

Flop:
764r

Checks to villain who bets $75
Hero calls

Turn:
Jx

Villain bets $175
Hero calls (I don't believe there are enough Jx hands he would be betting 2/3 pot and he could be using the J as a scare card.)

River:
4x

Villain tanks and announces all in for about $320 more
Hero ???

Villain's first two streets of betting seemed like he had a strong hand or at least had a plan to signify strength. However, on the river, he seemed to hesitate on if he wanted to check or jam. Didn't think it was a hollywood, but he genuinely looked like he didn't want to fire the 3rd barrel. I am beating most two pairs now and all straight draws missed. The fact that he limped and then called the raise makes me weighted towards a much weaker hand and virtually having no J's. Is this a call or a fold?

Any info on villain?

Vs a complete unknown I call. He could have anything with a 5, he could have 98, he could have 76 that just got counterfeited, he could be a spaz and just have some random hand like A7. Might fold this vs some villains though.

Snap call. This is an amazing river card for us. All straight draws miss, sets are now less likely and we beat 76. We also beat 88 and 99.

TL;DR call flop is good, close fold on the turn, easy fold on the river

Definitely not folding TT on the flop here in a 5/5 live game cause people are leading 88, 99, 87s, A7 and are limping a capped total garbage range but you should also realize that this is probably "supposed" to be a fold.

As played turn it's starting to get close to where I'd consider folding TT. I don't expect 88, 99, 7x to barrel this turn with that sizing. We have better calls with our JJ+ cause TT blocks T8s and T9s and one could argue that 65s/87s/45s might be better calls if we don't expect him to barrel 7x, 88, 99 with this sizing. I will say that TT is for sure close and I'd probably end up folding. Flop was 4 ways! FWIW I'd definitely fold 88 and 99 as they block more bluff hands than TT and are more vulnerable to being outdrawn by T9s/T8s.

As played river the same type of logic applies as the turn. So we fold 89s and T8s, ok easy. The rest of our range looks something like 45s/65s/78s/76s that we raised pre, TT+, sets that didn't raise the flop, and straights that didn't raise the flop and decided to raise pre.

Assuming villain's range is full houses, trips, and straights + bluffs which hands do we wanna call? JJ/45s and sets/straight that didn't raise the flop are first. But I'm raising a set/straight (if we even have those combos pre which I don't) on the flop 100%. We want to call QQ, KK, and AA because they don't block any/as much bluffs (AA blocks A5s). We call 76s as well as it blocks flopped sets. Now we're left with 65s and TT (if we called turn with it) and 65s blocks value, TT blocks bluffs. Seems to me like TT is the worst hand to call with on the river and we should actually consider folding AA as it blocks A5s cause we got plenty of better calls to call him with.

Now, all of this changes if you assume he's bluffing too often, if you don't ever have 65s type hands preflop etc etc so whatever man call if you think he's bluffing and fold if you think he's got you beat

I think I dump on the turn here. Our flop call is really strong and V continues with a value-sized turn bet. Unless he would do this with a hand like 55, I just don't see too many hands in his range that we beat that bet that amount (88-99 maybe but he probably checks those as he has SD value).

Getting to the river AP, $940/$320 and we beat all logical 2 pairs makes this close. Only draw that missed is 55. I think I still dump it.

Did you give any thought to raising the flop? Might have helped define the hand better and potentially saved us $.

Against unknown, I would instacall and I don't think it's close. This is spaz 7x more than it is ever is anything that makes sense.

Why would you fold on the turn? As for table dynamics the table has been a much of loose older aged gentleman looking to gamble and play with pretty much any two cards. Several players have come up with junk and although I have not seen any of my opponent's cards, there's no reason to suggest he has a strong hand when limping into the pot then calling the $30 raise. I only see him raising a hand like J7s on the flop and on the turn if he is weighted strongly towards top pair, but there are so few combos of those that he would actually call with.

I didn't give much thought on raising the flop because I don't think I am beat by much and I wanted to keep all potential straight draws/bluffs in there. He will never have JJ+ in this spot, and almost never two overs. It's mostly weighted towards top pairs and straight draws IMO.

I’ve only read the initial post.

Key missing fact is play style of the early limper.

When I see a first in limper, my spot view is very weak/loose player. I generally range him on something like:

V’s preflop limping rage: TT-22, A9s-A2s, KTs-K9s, QTs-Q8s, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, T8o+, 97o+, 86o+, 76o [229 combos, 18.7% of hands]

Roughly 1 out of 5 hands which is probably too few for many of these weak/loose players. HOWEVER, without knowing how often this player is limping and raising we can’t be sure. This is however, my base case assumption, though I admit it is much too wide for occasional limpers rather than the habitual limper I believe typical of MP LFI types.

You can trim the worst hands out of this range since he called your 5x open. So going to the flop his range is something like:

V’s preflop calling range: TT-22, A9s-A2s, KTs-K9s, QTs-Q9s, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, T9o, 98o, 87o [161 combos, 13.1% of hands]

Does anyone disagree with anything I have so far?

If so, unsurprisingly you are a big favorite. 77% equity versus the assigned preflop calling range.

764r is a relatively good flop for him as his equity is better, but his range is still way behind. You have 70% equity.

He bets out.

He has a good amount of nuted value here.

A7s, TT, 99, 88, 77, 66, 44, 76 [27 combos, 16 of which you are ahead of or chop]

Also has a good amount of hits

55, A6s, A4s, 97s, 86s+, 65s, 54s, 87o [36 combos, many of them pairs and draws]

A ton of good draws:

A5s, T8s, 97s+, 98o [25 combos, 8outs + draws]

A ton of backdoors. Considering he is playing lots of suited hands and the flop is rainbow. He has tons of over cards to your pair.

Just those 3 categories not including overs and backdoors is over half his range.

LFI types often donk here and aren’t going to deliberately play in flow. Considering he only has 11 combos ahead of yours I dislike your call. You should be raising here for value. He is going to be calling a lot based on the composition of his hand and considering there are not many good turns for your hand combined with his range I think protection is very important.

I like a big raise here on the flop. I go full pot.

The jack is a pretty safe card since you block some JT’s and importantly there aren’t any flop leads where he has a jack unless he is donking a huge percent of the time, there were zero J’s in the ranges nuted, hit or bluff ranges outlined above.

His turn lead is largish, and makes me think most of V’s “hits” would check. His good bluffs he might continue with and his nuted hands he continues with. So lets update our ranges to:

TT-44, A5s, T8s, 98s, 76s, 65s, 54s, 98o [58 combos of value or 8+ out draws]

You still are in a great spot 68% equity versus the above range. With only 11 of 58 combos value versus your hand.

Again, I don’t like the call here. I want to jam here. There are lots of combo hands that villain is going to have to call you with.

The river 4 is good for you. He only has 54s and maybe A4s in his range. You’re now ahead of 67. All the draws missed, so this could be a bluff. I call here pretty frequently.

Really interesting hand. I would like to think off table, that I would have played it much faster. Live its harder to do that since the board is so wet but I think it is the type of wet board that you can get tons of value from. Personally, I need to do a better job of identifying these situations and really trying to extract on them.

It’s also worth pointing out that the initial assumption, of how wide the limping range of the villain is ended up not being that important. If you look at the final 58 combos I have come up with only 98o (12 combos) is marginal (possibly TT but limited based on your hand). All of the remaining 46 are very likely to be limp/calls for most people who would limp first in from mid-position.

If he has 55. He almost certainly has 56s. 89 is more questionable but it could be there. A5s too. T8s. I see a lot here.

I see a lot of 8 out draws that V could have lead with knowing this is a bad flop for our range. I maybe giving V too much credit, but if he leading an 8 out draw he is likely to continue on the turn if something brickish comes off.

Lots of those straight draws also have 1 pair, which means even if you pop them they are going to stick around.

Preflop, villain is closing the action when he called the raise. He had to call 25 in a pot of 100. And he just called. No AA/KK. 35s gets possible.

And he leads on flop. I don't see someone doing it without 2p+
67,66,77, 44,35, very distant 58


If the river read is correct and genuine... A pause..
That gets sets out of his range.

So 35 value bet - pause to make sure, we don't have jj .

Or 67 semi bluff.. Thought he was already keeping us on big pair, that we can't fold.


I think, it was a flopped straight. But I only have to be good 25% of the time, so I might sigh call river.

I would have folded the turn here,as river all in was always coming.

This is all well and good but you're forgetting that the flop is 4 ways not heads up so basically all that analysis doesn't apply ;/ raising flop is total spew.

So to the bolded I will ask this: What do think V puts us on when we call his lead on the flop as the PFR? Have you floated with overs on this table and shown them down? If not, then he puts us on an overpair or at worst a hand like A7s. And yet, he still bets 2/3 pot on the turn.

While your ranging on the flop of him having top pair or str8 draw may be correct, I think the turn bet changes that. V has all sets and 2 pair in his range as well as 85ss and 53ss for the str8. We are pretty much capped at one pair....and yet he bets. To me, that is a clear indication that TT is no good here and I would fold.

Really appreciate all the input guys. Much appreciated. This was my first time playing 5/5, and the dynamics of the game seemed to be weighted towards extremely aggressive play and a lot of random garbage being shown down.

In the end I am beating all two pairs that didn’t contain a J and with his hesitation and sincere nervousness on the river, I couldn’t put him on any sets either and called. He showed A5o and I scooped.

Even if you just call the flop you should IMHO jam the turn, based on the shown “work”.

LOL. I had him ranged pretty wide and I still missed. At least I had A5s as something he’d push on.

LFI are mana from heaven.

Just played a 100NL online hand which seemed somewhat relevant to my outlook on OP's hand. Unknown Villain (80bb effective) limps in EP. I raise otb with KQ. Villain calls. Flop Kc7c3d. He donks pot. I call. Turn 6s. He donks pot. I call. River Td. He jams half pot. I call. My hand is good against Villain's pocket Jacks.

When a solid TAG donks into the raiser, it is usually some fairly strong hand. But the donks of randos skew very heavily towards weak hands ime.

Glad you won. But make sure you understand that this was a live read based call predominantly and not one based on solid math (especially continuing on the turn...river is different). That is fine of course, but you should expect to be wrong here a good amount as well.

Can you explain how the math should’ve been thought out on the turn?

Specifically range V (whom as far as I can tell we have very few reads on) when he follows up a 2/3 pot bet OTF with another OTT when we have called a flop of 764r as the PFR IP and Jx hits the turn. What I am really getting it at is how often do you think V bets TWICE with a hand that TT beats here?

In post 8 I made a reasonable case, at least in my view, of ranging that justify calling... it as I would have advocated jamming the turn.