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Old 07-26-2017, 01:47 AM   #1
StacknLikeCordWood
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Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

Appreciate input on the following hand:

Local casino 1/3NL

Villian1 (800): MAWG reg. TAG. Fights hard postflop when he sees weakness or potentially orphan pots. Not afraid to run big bluffs. Sometimes overvalues TPWK type hands postflop. Generally solid though, compared to the ave player in this pool.

Villian 2 (300): ~30yo WG. Just sat at table. No exp with him. Wearing a business polo and carrying an alcoholic beverage. Appears like a rec, but again, zero history with him. This is his first hand.

Other villians not as relevant.

Hero has 365 to start the hand.

OTTH:

Villian 1 raises to 18 UTG+1. Another EP player calls. Hero calls in MP with AhKd. (I know, 3bet. There was a tilting player to my left that was 3betting pre a lot and with the raise coming from EP, flatted here.) Villian 2 in BB calls.

Flop (73): Ad Qd 4s

Checks thru. (Considered a value bet here obviously and without Kd I always am. In position, and with Vil 1's tendencies, I decided to let one peel.)

Turn (73): Ac

Checks to Hero. Hero bets 55. Villian 2 calls. Others fold.

River (183): 5c

Vil checks. Hero bets 65. This size was designed to target Qx. Vil raises all in for 162 more. Hero?

I know a lot of the players I respect on this forum advocate always bet/fold, but if you say fold here would appreciate some thoughts on villian's range. I discount QQ, 44, and Ax due to the flop and turn action. Would villian decide to peel the turn with 55? Maybe double checked and called A5 and got there, but if A5 is in his range, we should expect some Ax that we beat, no?

Appreciate any feedback.

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Old 07-26-2017, 03:03 AM   #2
Eholeing
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

Probably 3bet pre, but flatting not the worst. Not sure why you're discounting 44 and other ax in villians range though, do you think he's leading all of his strong hands?

As played
Bet flop 100% of the time if you flat ak pre
Turns fine
River is fine too, call and lose to aq/5 or 44
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:36 AM   #3
ChrisV
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

Flatting pre is reasonable in the circumstances, I'd still probably just 3b though.

Flop check is terrible, I don't think I need to explain.

Never folding river given your line up until this point, villain will struggle to put you on an ace given your flop check behind.
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:36 AM   #4
StacknLikeCordWood
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

The point about discounting was due to the villian checking both the flop and turn. Assuming most players that tried to trap the flop with a set/aces up or checked a pair of aces are going to lead the turn.

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Old 07-26-2017, 04:19 AM   #5
Tomark
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

So, betting flop is like the most obvious thing ever, shouldnt need an explanation.

By the river, he could certainly have QQ. thiere is this bizarre thing where people check JJ+ sets wayyy too often, even when they are vulnerable, and on the turn, he isnt vulnerable anymore. I would discount 44. I dont know why he would check back Ax on the flop, so i agree with that. He could have 55 and think maybe he is good when he called turn.

But like obviously call... This is a really obvious call. 162 to win 475 with trips+ top kicker with no (real) straight or flush on board.

I would say youre ahead of his range, and you dont even need to be. You probably have odds to call with A2, maybe even KQ, because he is bluffing often enough if he plays as you say.

B/F isnt for hands like this, mostly for 1 pair hands, and weak 2 pairs.
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:15 AM   #6
gobbledygeek
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

Any idea what this guys preflop range is? I typically give respect to EP TAGs raising range, so I'm cool with the flat preflop, especially since there isn't exactly a lotta money in the pot to go after, plus if an tilty guy 3bets behind us we can then think of reraising that with a boatload of dead money.

I don't mind a check back here to target V1's pot fighting on later streets, but 3ways on this board (decently drawy) I think I lean towards a bet. If V1 calls we can setup a bluffcatcher by checking back the turn and let him fight for it on the river.

Turn is obvious at this point.

I like the small river bet because (a) it targets small hands and (b) because it is weak looking it might induce a bluff from a guy who fights for pots (especially since we checked back the flop). I'm not convinced a guy would play a nuttish hand on this flop and turn multiway like this, and even A5 probably would have bet the turn once the flop checks thru. I'm fairly convinced I'm ahead and call.

Gfinewiththehandifyoucalled,imoG
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:17 AM   #7
gobbledygeek
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

Quote:
Originally Posted by StacknLikeCordWood View Post
The point about discounting was due to the villian checking both the flop and turn. Assuming most players that tried to trap the flop with a set/aces up or checked a pair of aces are going to lead the turn.

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This would be my thinking as well, especially on this board, especially multiway.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:18 AM   #8
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

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Originally Posted by ChrisV View Post
Never folding river given your line up until this point, villain will struggle to put you on an ace given your flop check behind.
Given this (which I agree with), I think that makes checking back the flop hardly terrible (especially against this guy).

GalthoughIwouldprobablyleantowardsabetG
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:24 AM   #9
Dubey
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

I could maybe get behind a check if we were heads up, but 4 ways flop has to be a bet.
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:27 AM   #10
Avaritia
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eholeing View Post
Probably 3bet pre, but flatting not the worst. Not sure why you're discounting 44 and other ax in villians range though, do you think he's leading all of his strong hands?

As played
Bet flop 100% of the time if you flat ak pre
Turns fine
River is fine too, call and lose to aq/5 or 44
+1
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:36 AM   #11
Javanewt
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

Never folding river the way this hand was played.

Agree w/ 3bet pre, after flatting pre bet flop.
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Old 07-26-2017, 11:42 AM   #12
gobbledygeek
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

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Originally Posted by Dubey View Post
I could maybe get behind a check if we were heads up, but 4 ways flop has to be a bet.
Whoops, I thought we were only 3ways (where I'm still leaning towards a bet but don't think checking is terrible), but yeah, 4ways I'm definitely leaning more towards a bet (and not liking a check nearly as much).

GcluelessreadingcomprehensionnoobG
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Old 07-26-2017, 02:46 PM   #13
StacknLikeCordWood
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

Appreciate the comments so far. I think everyone is misreading the turn action. After our turn bet, the caller is the new unknown villian, not the postflop bluffer that we have history with. The point of describing that villian was to explain the thoughts behind the preflop flat and flop check. Considering the change of villian on the river, does it make anyone change their mind about the call?

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Old 07-26-2017, 02:49 PM   #14
Javanewt
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

Quote:
Originally Posted by StacknLikeCordWood View Post
Appreciate the comments so far. I think everyone is misreading the turn action. After our turn bet, the caller is the new unknown villian, not the postflop bluffer that we have history with. The point of describing that villian was to explain the thoughts behind the preflop flat and flop check. Considering the change of villian on the river, does it make anyone change their mind about the call?

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I realized this. Still stand by my post.

Heck, it's almost more of a call based on no reads and assuming avg. player who thinks an A is the nuts here.
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:06 PM   #15
gobbledygeek
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

Ha, I didn't realize we were dealing with the other Villain (my second reading comprehension fail of the hand).

Think the river call is a little more dicey now, as this is like 32dd / AQ a lot. One of the only reads we have on him is that he's bought in for $300, which I'm assuming is the max (which typically, I think, means a better change at being a better player?). Still, folding to a brand new guy holding a beer but...

Git'salotclosernow,foldingcertainlyhastobeconsider edG
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:08 PM   #16
gobbledygeek
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

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Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
Heck, it's almost more of a call based on no reads and assuming avg. player who thinks an A is the nuts here.
Toughest part is knowing if he's a casino reg (most of who don't overvalue trips here and would just call) or a casino noob (most of which would consider any Ax here to be the nuts). All I know is that noobish players are harder and harder to come across, and they certainly don't last long. Any extra reads regarding his chip stacking method, chip handling, chip counting for placing bets, talking with other regs, etc. could sway things.

Ggrossspot,imoG
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:18 PM   #17
Javanewt
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

I'm not calling because of my opponent, anyway. I honestly don't see how you can ever play AK this way (flat pre, check flop, bet small on river) and fold here. Just fold pre-flop if that's your plan.
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:22 PM   #18
Lurshy
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

Quote:
Originally Posted by StacknLikeCordWood View Post
Appreciate input on the following hand:

Local casino 1/3NL

Villian1 (800): MAWG reg. TAG. Fights hard postflop when he sees weakness or potentially orphan pots. Not afraid to run big bluffs. Sometimes overvalues TPWK type hands postflop. Generally solid though, compared to the ave player in this pool.

Villian 2 (300): ~30yo WG. Just sat at table. No exp with him. Wearing a business polo and carrying an alcoholic beverage. Appears like a rec, but again, zero history with him. This is his first hand.

Other villians not as relevant.

Hero has 365 to start the hand.

OTTH:

Villian 1 raises to 18 UTG+1. Another EP player calls. Hero calls in MP with AhKd. (I know, 3bet. There was a tilting player to my left that was 3betting pre a lot and with the raise coming from EP, flatted here.) Villian 2 in BB calls.

Flop (73): Ad Qd 4s

Checks thru. (Considered a value bet here obviously and without Kd I always am. In position, and with Vil 1's tendencies, I decided to let one peel.)

Turn (73): Ac

Checks to Hero. Hero bets 55. Villian 2 calls. Others fold.

River (183): 5c

Vil checks. Hero bets 65. This size was designed to target Qx. Vil raises all in for 162 more. Hero?

I know a lot of the players I respect on this forum advocate always bet/fold, but if you say fold here would appreciate some thoughts on villian's range. I discount QQ, 44, and Ax due to the flop and turn action. Would villian decide to peel the turn with 55? Maybe double checked and called A5 and got there, but if A5 is in his range, we should expect some Ax that we beat, no?

Appreciate any feedback.

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Without rersaising pf, and chking flop, your hand is under repped. Never folding river to small crai from unknown. He could easily do this with KQ, AJ, QJ. etc and think he is good... Of course for not 3 pf or flop bet, hope he showed up with a wheel (-jk)
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:40 PM   #19
water69
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

Grunch.

I would 3b in this spot with this many people left to act behind me. The tilting guy would have to be tilting super hard and likely to 3b for me to use that as a reason to flat to obv 4b. That said, I don't think AK is a mandatory 3b all the time there's def spots to flat imo.

I'm betting this flop all day. If I were HU I might let one peel and hope v1 stabs but with it being 4 ways it's unlikely everyone will fold and I think you're missing value. Flop is pretty dry, so I bet something like 30-35.

Turn is fine. River I beat him in the pot. He could be value betting any ace ime. In all honesty I'm overbet shoving the river because no one ever folds an ace there for 220 and you don't know if Qx is calling anyway. I just think you're leaving $$ on the table by not betting large and targeting Ax. But this is also why I bet the flop, because you find yourself otr with a very strong hand and you could've easily had less than a psb left and it would've been an easy shove.

I like that you're thinking of all the factors and not just auto making the standard plays, that's imperative in live poker imo, but I would advise to make sure the negatives don't outweigh the positives before you do something tricky or fancy like flatting AK pre here or checking this flop. Getting value from your strong hands is where you'll make the most money especially at 1/3, so if you're taking a tricky line make sure there's a strong chance it will result in you winning a big pot.

If you lost this pot, that sucks but I would have to have an extremely strong read to fold this hand for this amount of money. And we don't have any reads (other than his appearance, which doesn't imply nittyness).
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:42 PM   #20
gobbledygeek
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

You play in a different pool of opponents if people are check/raising Qx on the river just cuz we have an underrepped hand. People will call, sure, but check/raise with Qx? Basically never, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:49 PM   #21
water69
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
You play in a different pool of opponents if people are check/raising Qx on the river just cuz we have an underrepped hand. People will call, sure, but check/raise with Qx? Basically never, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG
I agree. People never turn sdv into a bluff at llsnl and it would be horrible to do so with Qx in the spot. Still think without a read that v is a super nit, he's shipping any ace, because how could he put hero on Ax. If I'm V I think A2 is the nutz.
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Old 07-26-2017, 03:56 PM   #22
jc315
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

I'm 3betting here a lot preflop and always betting this flop when pfr checks.

As played def value bet turn and river and calling river shove. We are at the top of our range and our hand is quite under repped. The jam is not even that big and he can be value jamming worse
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Old 07-26-2017, 04:06 PM   #23
gobbledygeek
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

Quote:
Originally Posted by water69 View Post
If I'm V I think A2 is the nutz.
There's probably some argument that check/raising A2 ain't great here either since what are you hoping calls? Although with a busted draw out there and being an unknown, probably ok.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 07-26-2017, 04:20 PM   #24
NebDanger
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

A lot of times when I flat a hand like AK or AQ where I could've 3bet I find myself wishing I'd 3bet somewhere along the hand. Even the fact of taking down $30 or so dollars preflop with no rake is nice. That said, I still do it because there are situations and opponents it can be appropriate for. As played I'm fine with the flat because we're planning to squeeze I guess? Don't know if it was clear but I assume if villain to our left had 3bet then we were 4bet committing ourself?

Anyways, as played on the river you have to call. I see a lot of opponents thinking any trips, AJ to as low as A5, to be the nuts here and are checking, praying someone does the betting for them. River bet is so small too that villain could feel confident you don't have Ax. I'm calling all day and not giving it much thought.
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Old 07-26-2017, 04:47 PM   #25
gobbledygeek
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Re: Trips with AKo facing river check-raise

The thing that worries me most is that when the flop checks thru most Ax hands would bet the turn here (and certainly check/raise it when someone finally does bet it) due to being worried about the draws ("The draws! The draws! I can't let someone draw for free!").

Gdoesn'tseemthispersonwasworriedaboutthedraws,soit 'sunlikelyheonlyhasAx,imoG
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