2/3 NL

Hero in UTG+2 with 88xx ($450)
UTG+1 limps
Hero raises to $20
MP calls
CO calls
UTG+1 calls

Flop:
J86ssx

Hero checks
MP bets $45
CO calls
UTG+1 folds
Hero ???

Is this a spot to put in a 3bet or just call and see a turn and let them keep firing? At my particular game flush draws love to call, but I am not particularly sure about being called by a 3bet. MP has been playing pretty snug and I've only seen maybe 1 or 2 hands played by him. CO seems to bet very strong whenever he has anything and PFR to $20 with premiums only such as QQ+, AKo, or AKs. His flop play is pretty straightforward, so I don't put him on a monster at all.

Just me personally but on a flop like this I’d recommend leading out with a small (almost silly small) bet of $20.
Something like that on a board like this almost certainly gets raised and then you have an easier decision.

As played I don’t want to see a turn that’s a Q, 7 or a spade, so I just raise here to around $125-$150.

Anytime I try to trap, I just remember the times I “trap myself”

The flush draw and straight draw are on board c/r the pot to charge the draws gii on turn.

On first thought I was thinking bet flop because it is a disaster to check through but on second thought I don't hate a crai on flop given the bloatedness of the pot and this board will typically miss your pf raising range. Either way is fine probably.

Now I am raising since there's $170 in the pot you can probably just go all in at this point. Letting them draw for $45 in a pot of $215 if you flat would be pretty terrible.

If you have a lag at your table maybe... against fish this is a waste of a bet

Lead or check raise. It’s wet enough multi way that you are almost guaranteed a bet. Make it 110 to go (your CR bet)

In this era where everyone assumes you're cbetting with AK, I like to bet out. The draws will call, but not bet. There's too many people in the hand for someone not to have something that they'll call, but not necessarily bet.

How do people respond to this OP before we learn the effective stacks?

Sorry. MP has $290 and CO has around $175 before the flop.

It depends on the player types if you want to trap, but the board is so draw heavy I think you have to raise the flop.

Also consider you’re OOP. If you flat the $45 I assume you’re also checking the turn to induce? Then if turn goes c/c you lead the river? At that point V already missed or made his hand. Really don’t like that. IP with V’s relatively short we can consider where and how to get stacks in. Being OOP we have less options. If you choose to check flop you have to check/raise otherwise the following steets won’t play out the way you want to. Also why OOP i’d Advocate for a lead here. Bet flop, bet turn is usually going to be viewed as weaker than c/r flop, lead turn.

A lot of your preflop results are exactly the same; you raise and get eleventeen callers. Sounds a lot like the game I play in. If this is the result, I actually don't see what the point raising is. I mean, in this case some will say it's easier to get stacks in when we hit our set this deep, and that's true enough. Of course, if you play in games where a raise can get flatted by hands as strong as AA, we often just setup cooler situations for ourselves. And being the flop is eleventeen ways we basically will very rarely get ourselves into situations where we can bluff profitably (bluffing eleventeen ways is hard; I mean, yeah, it'll work sometimes, except for that one time we start bluffing into the nuts which will wipe out all our profits). At tables where a raise always goes very multiway, I would have a 0% raising range (unless everyone is super short and I'm cool stacking off with TP very multiway) and would limp/reraise my monsters. And on top of that you're building all these bloated multiway pots OOP; if you're going to do this, at least do this in position, no? Anyhoo, that's how I look at things; obviously not everyone will look at things the same way.

Anyhoo, SPR is just over 5 on this flop. It's a pretty drawy flop. I would probably PSB+ the flop to setup a turn shove. With only two players to act behind us, I think it's too risky to risk a free card by check/raising. As played, have to reraise to this action on this board. There's already $170 in the pot. Heck, with these stacks you could argue for a shove at this point.

ETA: I was assuming $450 effective stacks. Knowing the stacks are actually much shorter than that makes a shove even more trivial at this point, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

The initial check on the flop is downright criminal. Checking is simply fancy play syndrome.

You should definitely just bet out like 60-65 on this flop.

With V's stack sizes (225/110 left after the bet and call) I would just ship it in.

Your first paragraph is a pretty accurate description of my game. I tend to question my plays pretty often because I think that I am PFR the standard amount and see other players get 1 or 2 callers, while I am stuck with 4 or 5. I might just being too results oriented, but I have gotten into a lot of trouble where I just make it a much larger raise than it needs to be and find myself being too committed or setting up very poor SPR situations. So my mentality has been just to tighten up my range, particularly in EP, and to make the standard raise of $15 and adjust for the limpers, see a flop and play poker from there.

I would love to hear your approach, but I just don't like the idea of constantly limping and I don't like making it $20-25 pre with this only being a $300 max game.

I have almost 4000 hours of live 1/3 NL and far away the grossest situation I get myself into and still don't know how to handle appropriately is doing a raise in EP, getting 4 callers, and then hitting TP / overpair, especially with like $300+ stacks. If you feel you have a good handle on it, then continue to get yourself in that situation. Otherwise, I would recommend (a) tightening *way* up in EP (seriously, if all you played in EP was 77+/AK/AQs, you probably couldn't go too far wrong) and (b) open limp (to reraise the stronger end of this range).

Another thing to keep in mind is that the size of the raise, so long as it is considered "reasonable", pretty much has no affect on the number of callers. If everyone has a hand they want to see a flop with, especially if there's an early caller to the raise, then it pretty much makes no difference whether you open to $10 or $25. But since you're OOP and no one else has acted, you have zero clue who / how many are interested in the hand.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Very true, I think every situation will be a case by case scenario, but I think at least one thing that I can solve is respecting 3bet ranges in these games. I had a situation where I had ATs, raised to $15, villain 3bet to like $37, I hit top pair with a flush draw on board. He leads for $50, couldn't fold in that spot, then saw a Ks on the turn and he elected to jam with like $70 more. Assumed he was an aggro player and called it off and got shown KK.

So in the cases of if both of us hit top pair and his kicker somehow binks two pair, then there's nothing I can do unless his betting or stack size tells me otherwise. But ultimately, my mentality is get in for $15 and go from there. No need to make it cheaper, no need to bloat up the pot. I think $15 has been a range where I can get to heads up at times, but not make it too high where I am faced with some gross spots.

excellent analysis and very true of lower limit games.

In that case, the pot is like $170 when it gets back to you, just shove. Take it down or force draws to pay mightily.

The only reason not to fire out 60 OTF is if you are absolutely certain one of them will let you CR.

AP, it's shoving time, with a thank you note to MP for the free $90 when they both fold.

I have opened threads on this subject before. Jonathan Little advocates a smaller open raise size (similar to online) for live play. With no limpers, he advises an open to $7. I have seen this work in live games for the last 2 years quite a bit for myself and others. It also makes players with AA and KK very uncomfortable to just call here because it is unlikely to get re-raised so I often see OMC's raising to $50 here and playing face up with premiums.

I see no reason to just not simply b/b/b. Middle sets are our moneymakers, build the pot ASAP, because dear god if this flop checked through it would be a disaster.

$60 on flop, jam turn if they both called flop. If only MP calls flop then turn/river sizing are dependent on the runout.

Yeah, when we raise pre, why on earth are we checking with these stacks? Just bet/bet with a plan to get it in on the turn

If we check, I hope it is to c/r all in against draws

Middle/bottom set needs to be a c/r on this board if you're going to c/r some nfd/combo draws. Not saying this particular situation is the same bc they're short, but just in general. I too like bet flop/shove turn in this spot.

With their stacks, slam dunk c/shove as played. Probably more profitable if they fold out their fd equity but calls are fine.