So after 250+ hours in 2/3 across different poker rooms in California and the occasional Vegas trip, I've noticed a few things:

1. At capped 100bb buy in games, the stack depth from other opponents make the game seem too one-dimensional, where the majority of all decisions are made preflop and there are too many "I have to call it off" or "I just have to fold" decisions on the turn due to SPR.

2. The rake for most of these California games are just too high to overcome. $1 for no flop, $6 for every flop seen, and $7 to the river.

3. My game's standard raise size is $15 and usually I will get 3-4 callers almost always creating low SPR situations in every pot.

Now, if I'm going to be blatantly honest, I am currently a breakeven player after these 250 hours. I have gone through a significant downswing in the last 4 sessions and have seen my nearly 3k profit evaporate to $0. (Not just in the last 4 sessions, but over time.)

I hear different opinions about moving up and I think all the points are valid, but from what I've experienced personally, the biggest proponents to move up are rake and stack sizes among opponents. I play this game as a side venture to make profit, but I can't seem to see this 2/3 game being profitable long term. The 5/5 game is capped to $600, but I believe the rake would be less of a factor than sticking with a 2/3 game where the average stack size is about 30-50 bb.

So would you ever suggest a breakeven player to ever move up in stakes after 250 hours?

I had a similar experience. 474 hrs at there Bike 2/3. I moved up to 5/5 the second I had the funds. Looks like you're eyeing the Gardens games. I say move up.

Yep, exactly spot on lol. Just curious,

1. How did you do in your 474 hours at the Bike? Was it profitable for you?
2. Are there any glaring differences from 2/3 to 5/5 and the fact that it's at different casinos?
3. Any new advice for a player that's never played at this stake level?
4. What is the standard open? Does 3betting occur much more often?

Glad to see this thread as I am eyeing moving up in the very near future as well.

For those that have moved up from 2/3 to 2/5, would you consider having more than 20 buy-ins for a 1,000 capped 2/5 game? Or since you’re moving up than 20 BIs are fine?


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I beat it for less than min wage. I also started playing the 5/5 at the bike way before I came to Hawaiian Gardens. I like the deeper game more. Could be just luck but i hate the Gardens. People there play worse than anywhere I've seen though. Standard open is 4 or 5x. 3bets are fairly nutted there.

With the standard open to 4/5x, do you still carry over your typical ranges from a 2/3 game? Sounds like these games are still going multiway and you're stuck in low SPR situations..

Yes... which is why I prefer the deeper games. I usually hit up Gardens on Mondays and Tuesdays when Bike & Hustler are slow. Wednesday through the weekend I play the deeper games. Better competition, but being deep vs the few poorer players seems to be netting me more than being 50-150bb deep vs the dweebs at the Gardens... that and for some reason that place stuck me on doomswitch.... like seriously I have ~1300hrs logged at 5/5. I'm doing fine in the deep games but actually loosing money at the gardens. It could be because there are some spewtards at Gardens that I get into huge pf spots with and still loose. Also, for whatever reason, people love straddling at the gardens, so you're stuck playing 5/5/T with 60bb. It's a variance fest that's currently beating me down. It's just probability, but I'd think much better of that place if I wasn't running like **** there.

My 1/3 NL game (pretty much the only game running around these parts) plays quite similar; no drop if no flop, 10% max rake of $7 (will soon go to $8 from what I understand), preflop raises often getting multiple callers and $300 max BI (although often many sitting with smaller).

You're right: it's pretty much a preflop game. My conclusion (which others may argue) is that the correct strategy in this environment is to play *extremely* tight (like, super nit tight), and the game can still be beaten due to the preflop looseness of your opponents. But you're unlikely to destroy it.

Obviously the bigger stack game will have a better chance of outrunning these drawbacks. But the single biggest question: can *you* win in that game? You're not winning in your current game (where the strategy is fairly straightforward); deeper the strategy becomes a lot more complex.

Ggoodluck,imoG

I just can't see how a super nitty strategy can be a winning one even in the long term. Sure, I'm getting the money in good preflop most of the time, but I would literally be playing like 10 hands in a 4 hour sessions. What is my range going to look like? Only playing AKo+, JJ+? I think there is too much value lost by not playing suited connectors in LP, trying to steal the blinds regardless of my hand, etc. Which is why I am considering a move to a deeper game and where higher SPR pots can be played on a more frequent basis. You are absolutely right that I am not winning in my current game, and maybe I am getting ahead of myself, but if I have the capability of replenishing my roll, wouldn't this move make more sense?

Regarding the straddles, would that require me to buy in for the full $1000? I was mainly trying to buy in for the $600 at the gardens, or $500 at a 100bb capped game. I do agree that I don't want to play a 5/5/10 game with only 60bb, but is this rule only applicable to those pots that are straddled? Should I only be playing premiums in this spot?

I think the bolded means that $600 is 60bb with a $10 straddle

You should tighten up, but still respond to people's ranges. I've been able to 4bet/gii with ATo and AJs a few sessions ago with them being favorites (not that they held up, but that's beside the point) That's just vs one particular V that splashes around few times per month though. Not everyone's like that there.

Also... you can't buy in for more than $600 at the gardens, straddles or not, just like any other game here. Wish we had stack matching like in NorCal at below 5/T.

My point is that if you can't see how a super nitty strategy is likely the only strategy that can beat your shortstack / poor rake / etc. game (although I'll admit it's arguable), then I'm not convinced you're going to be able to figure out how to beat your deeper game (which is going to require a much more complex strategy).

GgoodluckG

Right, so even with the $600 max buy in, would you say this is overall a better/more profitable game than the 2/3 at the Bike?

Yeah, definitely. Much appreciated for the advice!

@ The Bike, you're paying ~$19/hr in rake at tables where the avg stack size is ~$200. Same rate at 5/5 @ the Gardens but the average stack will be ~$500. Good sessions (maybe 40%) you'll actually be deep vs several players. Judge for yourself where there's more $ to be made. You can also play in Hustler or Bike 5/5 games, just not BI for 1k if you're not rolled for it, knowing that when you win a few pots, you'll still have most of the table covering you.

If standard 4-5x open gets too many callers, be non standard and open bigger. Its pretty simple. Find their pain threshold for calling raises.

I don't want to badmouth this approach because I do utilize it, but to play devil's advocate, I sometimes find that the pain threshold in some games is just way too high to the point where you want to have a nutted range for any pf open b/c you're creating a really low SPR. That leads to you tightining up and getting little action. Sometimes it's just best to "play their game" and bluff a bit less post flop. I know at some tables I can open 9x and still get called in 3 to 5 spots by short to mid stacks that "want to crack my aces."

Well if the game is that crazy you can just wait for premiums and let them call 10x with garbage. Its boring but its effective.

Or better yet...limp / shove premiums...even from MP

Yeah, going to 9x with like AK and just whiffing the flop getting 3-4 callers just seems really gross in many situations. If we come to a board of like A73 rainbow, I am fine getting it in most of the time, but on something like AQJ ssx, I am just hating the situation.

Not much to add but I agree that if profitability in poker interests you at all, you kind of need to play 5/5 or higher in LA. While obviously tougher than the 200, Gardens 5/5 is by no means difficult, especially at peak hours. Also very easy to get a table change with typically 5+tables going.

As I've discussed elsewhere regarding this, a lot of the time it has nothing to do with pain threshold but rather with how many people are holding a hand they'd really like to see a flop with. If 5 people at your table are holding pocket pairs / AK/ AQ / suited broadway / Axs / etc., you're going to the flop 6ways for pretty much anything up to 12x (especially after you get that first caller), imo.

But...

+1 to this idea

GcluelessNLnoobG

The answer is simple. If nobody can make money playing that game, then moving up is an option. However, if there are winners in the smaller game, you're probably not ready to move up to the bigger game. Like in any bigger game, there will be less weak players and the weak players won't be as bad. The best players won't be much better, but there will be more of them.