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Tptk vs scare card. Tptk vs scare card.

08-17-2015 , 02:50 PM
My problem is having tptk or over pair on a coordinated flop. i bet and i get called. Turn is a nasty card. what do you do if it completes flush, or a straight, or even pairs the middle card?

Do you slow down on a scare card? of course i'm more likely to bet again if check to me on the turn, but out of position, do you slow down?

Is there a cheatsheet of some kind that has tells you how often a call on the flop is cuz of a flush draw, or a oesd?
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08-17-2015 , 03:06 PM
Welcome to the forum, OP. This is super Villain dependent, as well as depending on effective stacks, and the rest of the action, especially if it's a 3-bet pot and your bet sizing on the flop (as it helps define the Villain's range).

Generally, though, if I put a lot of draws in V's range and the draw comes in, I slow down. I'll often go for river value if the turn checks through, but I don't want get committed, so I don't generally go for three streets of value in those situations.

No cheat sheets, as there are just way too many variables to consider. My advice is to post a hand that inspired this post, with stack sizes, reads on Villain, your image, action, etc. Then you can see what factorse make people lean one way or another.
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08-17-2015 , 03:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
Generally, though, if I put a lot of draws in V's range and the draw comes in, I slow down. I'll often go for river value if the turn checks through, but I don't want get committed, so I don't generally go for three streets of value in those situations.
This is not great advice.

First of all, how do you "put a lot of draws" in V's range with only the pre-flop action to go by? Second, being scared of pot-commitment is a recipe for leaving money on the table.

When you have a big Ace, or a big pair, then you already know that your most likely post-flop holding is going to be one pair. You should be planning your hand so that you can make a +EV commitment decision with one pair, AND be likely to get paid off by a weaker hand.

In other words, PLAY TO WIN STACKS, NOT POTS.

What you do is size your bets so that you can get heads up with a stack to pot ratio under 4 or 5 and then value bet the flop. If you've done this correctly, then your opponent will either A) fold, B) call and commit himself with an inferior hand, C) call with a draw that doesn't have correct odds, or D) raise allowing you to make a very informed decision about your hand.
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08-17-2015 , 03:37 PM
Quote:
how do you "put a lot of draws" in V's range with only the pre-flop action to go by?
I don't. I said "when I put a lot of draws in V's range." With no info about actual V, action, etc. I don't put lots of draws in V's range just because they are possible on the board. On those occasions when I have other reasons to put a lot of draws in his range, however (for reasons that this OP doesn't address), that is how I often proceed, because of the LP nature of so many 1/2 Vs.

As for your AlwaysTilting advice of raising so big you have a low SPR, that is often completely impossible, unless effective stacks are low.

And there is nothing wrong with winning pots. you yourself claimed that 2/3 of your winrate comes from raising pre and then taking down medium sized pots post.

If you can't stop being combative in every thread, I'm going to have to give you a vacation.
Tptk vs scare card. Quote
08-17-2015 , 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
I don't. I said "when I put a lot of draws in V's range." With no info about actual V, action, etc. I don't put lots of draws in V's range just because they are possible on the board. On those occasions when I have other reasons to put a lot of draws in his range, however (for reasons that this OP doesn't address), that is how I often proceed, because of the LP nature of so many 1/2 Vs.

Well then answer the OP's question. What circumstances pre-flop might lead you to put a lot of draws in villain's range as soon as the cards come out?

As for your AlwaysTilting advice of raising so big you have a low SPR, that is often completely impossible, unless effective stacks are low.

Most LLSNL games are capped are they not? This should be pretty easy with stacks <150BB's. Any 3-bet pot will get you there. And in cases where we are 100BB's deep or less, a 6-9x raise is plenty sufficient to get a favorable SPR around 5. It only becomes "completely impossible" if you pussy-foot around with 3 and 4x raises pre-flop.

And there is nothing wrong with winning pots. you yourself claimed that 2/3 of your winrate comes from raising pre and then taking down medium sized pots post.

Yeah with A6 suited!!! Not overpairs and TPTK. Big hands demand big value.

If you can't stop being combative in every thread, I'm going to have to give you a vacation.


This is a DISCUSSION forum. Let there be discussion. If an idea gets out there, it should be acceptable to challenge it. Most posters here are terrible players IMO, so it doesn't surprise me that my opinion often differs. I've done it without name calling, swearing, or being a troll. Everything I've posted is poker talk. Just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean I'm being combative.
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08-17-2015 , 04:31 PM
No, sorry, but you are being combative, and as the mods here it's our job to set the tone. If you don't see why your tone is unwelcome, I invite you to re-read the posting guide, especially mpethy's portion when you get back from your time-out. If you still don't understand, then you need to leave this forum.

To respond to your poker points:
The OPs question cannot be fully answered, because there are too many variable, which I already mentioned in my first response. Then I gave him the closest thing to a generic response that could be covered without a lot more info.

We can't make three bets happen when we are the opener, and a raise to 6x (which is actually my standard raise in most 1/2 games) with one caller gives us an SPR of 7.8 with 100BB stacks, which is a horrible SPR for overpairs. If we are in a game where we can bet 9x we get a decent SPR of 4.5, but those games aren't everywhere, and hopefully we've made enough that our stack is well over 100BB, in which case there is no way to get a low SPR against another deep stack as the PFR.

Disagreeing without being combative is not hard, just stop being dismissive and typing in all caps, multiple exclamation points, etc.
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