Not used to playing this deep against aggressive opponents, seemed like all options really sucked.

Hero has $1500,
CO has $1000

CO recently moved to our table from a broken table. He seems to be a rich older whale that usually plays 2/5. He has played almost every hand for about 30 minutes, raising preflop a lot then betting away post flop, people have been folding.

Only hand I saw was when he called a reraise preflop with 94 and raised big over a c-bet on a 943 flop and showed after the fold


Preflop:
2 limpers, CO limps, Hero raises to $25 with AQ in SB, tight player in BB calls, 1 of the limpers calls, CO calls

Flop ($100):
Q63
Hero bets $75, Only CO calls

Turn ($250)
5

Hero bets $140, CO raises to $600, Hero sigh folds


CO shows 94

Can probably bet smaller OTF. Holding the Ah we don't need as much protection. $40-50 seems fine.

Playing deep and going for 3 streets value always gets dicey.

Flop bet I prefer half pot.

Turn OOP sucks. Vs anyone I think that has ability to bluff I prefer to check/call. As we rarely lose value Vs any Queen or flush draw. Which allows us to play 100% of rivers unless we face a massive over bet which is rare.

I like your line here pf and on the flop;

I think betting the turn here is fine to extract value from FD's and weaker QX;

I don't like the fold against this player type I think we should call the raise and look to check/evaluate on the river

I think we can slightly discount sets here that would raise on the flop; the 5 completes a gutter so no reason to panic

I think having Ah in your hand makes It a bit difficult bc it removes his NFD combos; but his pf range is sooo wide that I still can't get behind a fold here

his raise was to $600 or so. If I call the raise to evaluate the river there will be $1500 in the pot with about $300 behind

yea I noticed that ; never folding for 300 so it's a shove or fold situation for sure

tough spot but I prefer to not fold for same reasons

If you aren't going to GII on this turn against a LAGgy whale you shouldn't be sitting at the table this deep as scared money.

whales make hands to.
Just because someone is spewy doesn't mean its standard to stack off over 3 buyins with 1 pair hands.

This could have been bottom of the whales range and he had 30% equity still

Check the flop OOP against a punter and don't fold. You have pretty robust equity.

This is very bad advice. You should almost never play TP for 300+BBs no matter who the villain is. The better solution is to check a street. Checking the flop or turn is fine. Dont bet both streets with one pair against a very aggro player who is capable of this kind of move when youre deep. You'll get destroyed.

I don't mind a check back on either the flop or turn. But claiming that you should almost never play TP for 300+BBs "no matter who the villain is" is a recipe for getting abused by a decent LAG.

In addition, if one is going to cap one's own calling down range, then why even raise AQo from the SB if there's a good chance we're going to end up HU vs. a LAG OOP, since we are specifically playing AQo to achieve a TP/TK hand?

This.

When you are deep like this you need to plan ahead for bets later in the hand, far more than when you are shallow--because the bets get bigger and can make or break your whole session.

You need to decide early in the hand, especially against someone who is capable of bluffing like this, how best to get your hand to showdown without getting into a spot where you might be folding the best hand. Sometimes that means you decide in advance that you will put your whole stack in play--and in this hand that would have meant betting bigger on the turn and then getting it in after the raise. Other times it means you will underplay your hand so you can snap off bluffs while protecting your stack, which means doing exactly what MikeStarr said and checking one or more streets so you don't get blown off the best hand.

Either of these options could be best, but the important thing is that you should be making this decision on the flop, not just blundering into this spot on the turn.

Checking 100% of flops is bad. We still have a chance on flop to get value from 2 other players. The villain is super wide and folding 60-70% of time on the flop.

Fact that OP posted results has ruined this thread. Which could have been a good one.

The only reason to call this raise would be his sizing. A lot of bad lags size up when they are looking for folds. Maybe we can call on this sizing tell.

But

Fact remains he has way more 2+ combos than we do.
Only hand we have that can comfortably call this raise size is QQ.

Guys wanting to bet flop huge and fire turn for value better buckle up. Guessing for 300+BB is not solid poker plan. Losing 100BB and being forced to fold 95% of your range should turn on light bulb that a mistake was made.

OP is on the right track. He realized a mistake was made and posted this hand. Too bad he posted results and won't get any good advice.

Bet flop
Check turn
Eval river

Evidently thread didn't load correctly this morning. And a few non result oriented post where made.

I am with Mike. My goal is to never stack off 300BB deep with one pair. And it can be fairly easily achieved without giving up a ton of value.

Although I am not a fan of checking this flop 4 ways

I think your advice in this thread is horrendous. Very results oriented.

Why do you feel you must bet turn so bad?

A simple check on turn gives us everything we want to accomplish.

You do realize that you just responded to my quote where I said "I didn't mind a check on either the flop or turn"?

Comes across as you preferring to bet and stack off.

+1 I love a x/c here if other players are deep or agro.

checking the flop in a 4 way pot seems pretty bad just because the guy with 100 vpip is in the hand

might as well not raise preflop then

I know I sound results oriented here; but I don't mind to bet and stack off vs this player type; if he is playing every hand for the last half hour I don't see what the problem is ? against most players this would be lighting money on fire but this situation calls for deviation in my opinion; especially given the fact that he would likely raise his sets on the flop; Nothing gets there on the turn but a gutter; Why check and give a free card to this guys range? that I feel we crush here;

Well played imo. You'd expect a whale that plays a huge range to either call you off too much or bet too much to try and put the pressure on you. You probably couldn't have expected him to raise a turn like this with a hand that you actually beat.

If OP had started this thread on the turn, I have no doubt that people would advocate a bet and not a check.

In the future though, you might proceed more carefully against this guy in similar spots, on the basis of this hand, or even decide to just go with it on the turn. But as long as I haven't seen someone do this, I see no reason not to go for three streets of value against someone I have labelled a whale.

This doesn't really compute.

+1...and it seems that the OP didn't really have a plan for this hand, going back to the PF 3-bet.

To clarify my earlier comments about post-flop, I think a turn check is fine, especially if we believe we can't call a raise.

However, if we bet and get raised, it seems that people are suggesting that we basically have no continuing range against a LAG, except QQ (since our good hands here are capped at AQ/QQ/AA/KK, and AA/KK is barely better than TP/TK).

Having a plan to b/f the turn against this Villain feels like burning money, so Hero must check the turn.

how so?