Hi guys,

New to the forum. Had a couple of hands I needed some advice on. My game is $1-2-3 NL.

I know I made a lot of mistakes in the hand as I'm pretty much a fish by 2+2 standards... so would love to hear some constructive criticism.

Table background: My image is likely tight/nittish. Played for about 6 hours and was just running terrible.. and i folded the vast majority of my hands. The one all in I had I had aces preflop... but other than that.. a lot of folding.

V1: fairly new to table. not much of an image on him
V2: fairly loose, not a good player

Hand #1: 3 limpers, I check my 82o in the big blind. $130 eff stack sizes (both villains cover)

Flop: K 8 8

Hero: leads for $15
V1 calls V2 calls

Turn: 3

Hero: $25
V1: raises to $75
V2: folds
Hero: ???







Hand #2:
Limps around (4 or 5 limpers) to me in the BB. V just bought in for $200; my stack size is ~$140, so V covers.

Hero AK
V: High 20-s caucasian. Is a 2-3-5 regular. Has been raising a good amount of hands. Just bought in again after losing a 3-way all-in (He had 10's; he open-raised, SB called, BB 3-bet, he called, SB shoves, BB shoves, He calls... crazy hand).

Raise to $25 - is this too much? Wanted to really punish all the limpers and make sure I dont get a multi-way pot.

Folds around to the Cut-off who calls.

Flop: A 2 7

Hero: checks - not sure why I checked. I felt like I would have the best hand here a lot.... think my original plan was to maybe just check call both flop and turn... and depending on the board, to C/R the river/turn

V: bets $40.

Hero: C/R all-in - again thought I would have the best hand here a lot. Thought V could easily have an A in his range - A10, AJ,AQ... also would have liked to just end the hand here. i dont like playing TP post-flop if the V is gonna put a lot of pressure on me.. knowing my skill level, it is hard to play even TPTK if the board starts to get really wet.



Thanks guys. I know my game is not solid and so I am working on it a lot. Would appreciate constructive criticism and not just... clowning haha. thanks all.



Self-critique:

What are the effective stack sizes? Im assuming its less than 100bbs so im cool with stacking off here. The hand is a cooler and u cant avoid losing money here. Preflop raise got the hand heads up although I would have made it 35 if the table was super loose and filled with limp callers.

On this board I dont mind checking for deception since it allows you to get called down by weaker hands on the turn and river when they are trying to bluffcatch you with a medium or small pair.

both hands the pot has gotten pretty big so playing it out isnt too bad.

I don't think you are too fishy at all. Good fold in first hand. Good raise size in second hand (5x plus 1bb per limped). You got it heads-up which is ideal. Yes you can play around with even bigger if Villains will call it but I think $25 was a good start.

Like bodybuilder says; always put stack sizes in your hand histories. Super essential information both for off the table an analysis and for informing your decisions in game.

If you had a low stack to pot ratio on flop I'm not against checking and calling to let villain barrel all his AX and bluffs at you. If you have a higher SPR then I swing more towards betting the flop around 1/3 to 1/2 pot. It gets you more information on V's range seeing his reaction to your betting. In a deep stacked situation you are unlikely to get stacks in good with 1-pair so you aren't looking to play it as fast as when you have low SPR. Maintaining the betting lead gives you control of the hand and forces V to raise sets if he wants to get stacks in - that gives you some warning you're beat and allows you to escape with a big chunk of a deep stack.

When shallow I'm happy gii here.

Now I'll read spoilers...

Ok, didn't realise you had so little behind in hand #1. I'd probably sigh call it off in game but I actually still think your fold is good. V doesn't expect you to fold anything ever in this spot so he isn't bluffing and i think most players are playing their top pairs passively for fear of trips in limped pots (not saying that's correct - just what I see people do).

Your thinking on hand 2 is essentially correct - V will read your OOP preflop raise as a big hand if you are tight. That isn't the end of the world as long as you either:

- don't pay off his sets when deepstacked and when your preflop raise gives V odds to set mine

- raise big enough comparative to effective stacks to deny correct set mining odds.

The alternative of loosening up with these blinds raises over limpers is dangerous and i wouldn't do it unless I had a strong read that I could get everyone to fold a profitable % of the time and a good read on the likely callers' postflop play so I can maneuver postflop even though it is tough OOP.

What you can do is raise a slightly wider range (22+ AQ+ ATs+ KQs QJs JTs KJs) to the same size and then use your tight image to cbet with good fold equity on suitably dry boards (repping over pairs). That means you can pick up pots when your set mining raises miss. Also, once you show down a set or straight or two-pair your image becomes more tricky and Vs will have a harder time playing back at you with air/draws (not that people do that much at low stakes anyway).

H1:

We have a fairly small stack so even though it's a multiway limped pot, we might have to consider committing ourselves on the flop depending on what happens.

I'd probably bet more on the turn.

I couldn't blame a fold here. Our stack is so small that I'm guessing Villain thinks we are committed and never folding. Plus he raised with a guy still to act behind him, and board has 2 flush draws to protect against. Unless he has a history of bluffing, I'd probably sigh fold here.


H2:

Preflop raise size is fine. Table is obviously loose enough with all these limpers to get action, and that's exactly what we got. We also got in 1/6th of our stack so now we can easily commit with TP on the flop.

On this super dry flop, and against an aggro player, and with us perhaps having a nittish image, we should probably slowplay to try and get the money in. One idea would be to simply check and see what happens, perhaps even checking the turn again (SPR is like 2, we could reasonably get stacks in on just one street). Another idea would be to bet stupid small to try to induce a bluff (like a god-I-hate-that-Ace $15).

As played, I'd just call his bet. A raise lets him throw away all his bluffs, so just call and check the turn to him. If the turn checks thru we'll only have a 1/2 PSB left for the river which we can then shove.

Results are simply unlucky. He called off 1/6 of his stack to setmine, he won't possibly be profitable long term doing that. We were committed as soon as we flopped TP here (although we shoulda taken the best line that got in chips against the widest range of his hands).


GcluelessNLnoobG

As you've stated, widening our raising range (especially out of the blinds), is definitely dangerous, and probably not something that should be recommended for noobs. To be honest, at a table where people are putting in 1/6th of their stack to setmine, widening our raising range probably really isn't necessary at all.

Gnittingitupworksatlowstakes,imoG

@gobbledygeek Thanks for responding, I've actually been reading your forum and it's been helping me get a better understanding of how to play a solid ABC/preflop ranges/PSR so thank you for your forum!

The reason I opted to just shove instead of call was because if I called pot ~$130 and I only have $100 leaving me less than a PSB. I didn't want some scare card (even though that board is pretty try) to come and have him just level me off my hand. Like I said before.. I don't like to play hands like just TPTK out of position if a lot of pressure is being applied to me. It's just more of a lack of experience/skill kind of thing, trying to find the balance between over-valuing something like TPTK and being too weak with them. In the end, I felt like a call is pretty close to pot commitment... and I didn't want any scare cards to come on the turn and river where I would just get pushed off of my hand. Also why would he bet so strong after I checked the flop? He must have been putting me on AK/AQ? And even so, $40 seemed high even for that.. Thoughts here?

That said, I felt like it was best to just shove. Although I guess I don't get too many better hands to fold - especially a set on this board - I also wasn't putting him on 2's. 7's was definitely a possibility but I definitely saw this player opening with 7's. Felt more like Ax and wanted to just move him off the hand and take my $65+ there.

@RageQuit99 - does that mean you still wouldn't raise big after limpers, even with AA/KK/AKsuited?

I definitely see what you mean by raising a standard size with a slightly wider range to make me a little harder to read, but I felt like with AA/KK/AKs I could just kind of play it to try to get heads up and hopefully take the pot.

Wasn't sure if his call with pocket 2's was "standard" either? Seems ambitious vs. a raise from a tight player even though I was in the blinds... was actually really surprised to see him turn over those 2's. Sigh... And yes Hand #1 was a sigh fold. I kept my poker face strong... but deep inside... big sigh.... especially after a really card dead night.

If the board was drawy in H2, then shoving after the check is much more reasonable (draws will probably call as a dog instead of perhaps taking a free card on the turn, we don't outplay ourselves if a scare card comes in and make a big mistake by folding the turn, etc.).

But this board is simply as dry as it gets.

You are also thinking about things wrong in a couple of spots. First, you're never getting a better hand to fold to a check/shove (the worse better hand is 72, and that hand ain't folding at these stack depths). Second, with these remaining stacks, you don't want to move him off Ax (a 3 outer); if you had a zillion $$$ behind and Villain was a tricky player and in position on you, ok, an argument could be made for being happy to win the pot now. But at these stacks, that doesn't apply; you definitely want 3 outers in there chasing with only a 1/2 PSB left.

Ggoodluck!G

Both hands are pretty standard. Except your reasoning for check shoving in hand 2 shouldn't be to "move him off a hand" it should be to get called by Ax and maybe 7x or PPs that are non-believers.

Yeah that makes more sense... I was thinking if shoving with a draw-heavy board is a better idea. And in retrospect, I just really don't get better hands to fold here.

In the future, how should I play something like TPTK/TPGK when someone headsup/3-way raises the flop large like V did here? Is TPTK/TPGK good enough to continue almost always, as long as there isn't something really compelling? (i.e. board isn't super-wet/fairly dry; having a very tight player be raising into you, etc)?

generally in small n/l, players will put far too much in with any pair preflop. and of course any two royal flush cards. so the best time to charge them is preflop for this.

A lot of this boils down to SPR (stack-to-pot ratio), which basically quantifies your risk vs reward. When the SPR is small, your risk (stack you have behind) is very small relative to the reward (the pot), so you should typically commit (ex. $100 pot, just $200 back for an SPR of 2, you should definitely commit with TP). When the SPR is high, your risk (stack you have behind) is very large relative to the reward (the pot), so you should be a lot more careful about committing (ex. $100 pot, $1000 behind for an SPR of 10, you should probably not be working towards commitment with just TP).

GinanutshellG

Definitely raise big over limpers with your big starting hands. Don't know where I gave the impression not to do so! I was just saying yes, Villain's will be aware of what you're doing, it just doesn't matter because they can't adjust well at low stakes.

This guy is a case in point - calling 22 to set mine with these stack depths and your raise size preflop is not profitable for him even if you pay him off every time he hits because he is paying too much preflop.

Calling to set-mine here may not be profitable but it is "standard" for most low stakes players. They just won't fold pairs preflop.

Something else these low stakes fish will do is change their minds about what you have depending on their hand. So preflop you isolate over a load of limpers a fish with a small pocket pair tells themselves you have QQ+ and they can stack you if they hit a set postflop. If they have AXs they tell themselves you have KK-TT so if they hit their Ace they're good. If they have QQ-77 they tell themselves you're raising with AK and they can call down any board without A or K.

It is called wishful thinking - they want to continue in the hand so they adjust your range to allow them to do just that. Yes they know you are tight and have a strong range but they will just pick the strong hand they most want you to have to suit their hand.

Therefore don't get obsessed with low stakes players "reading you" and "playing back at you". Mostly they aren't and you will gradually develop the ability to spot those who are good enough to exploit you. They are few enough to just ignore to start with though.

Until I get very strong reads I just fold all 1-pair hands to raises postflop. It is exploitable but I won't adjust till I know someone is exploiting me.

Agreed and I reiterate for OP: Don't widen your isolating range, particularly OOP until you are more comfortable postflop.

We don't need to expand our range to be profitable in these games and, if we don't know how to play it postflop we will risk becoming unprofitable. However, once we know what board textures and villains we can cbet against with a good chance of getting folds then the fact people are calling 1/6th stacks to set mine becomes a big source of profit for us.

But don't do it now

Also: Search the LLSNL forum for thread titles with COTM in. Concept of The Month threads are a great place to start expanding your knowledge of strategy, theory and terminology. You'll get a lot more out of your own threads once you start to understand the material 2+2ers all have at least some grasp of.

Without getting up to speed you risk finding a lot of advice quite confusing and contradictory.

First hand is pretty standard until the fold. I can't find a fold this short stacked with your hand. You may be behind, but you are getting a reasonable price to call and your absolute hand strength is near the top of your range. If you fold here, you are opening yourself to being bet off a lot of hands. 150 BB deep I can maybe get away from this,
But I'm stacking off here.

Second hand the open is fine. I would go a little smaller generally, but if you can get called go for it. I like the flop check but you need to understand why you are doing it. You are trying to look like a scared KK or QQ. When you c/r your hand can only be AA or AK and you are rarely getting called by worse. Call the flop bet and let him hang himself on the turn.

^ good point on hero's lack of consistency with flop x/r line. Keep telling the story that gets you the action you want.

@Jamitontheriver - so you're saying in this case, even if I was consistent with my line - that is checking the flop to rep a KK/QQ/JJ or something or maybe even a scared ace - I would go broke in this case? Or at least lose a lot of money - if I check-called hoping to induce aggression from someone misreading my hand as the KK/QQ/JJ/Weak ace? But in the long run or hopefully in most of these situations, I am going to be profitable?

Appreciate all the insights all. Starting to see how posting hand histories here and getting different opinions from more experiences players can be extremely valuable

@Ragequit99 Thank you for your inputs - and I'll definitely check out the COTM's. I've read a few of the COTW and liked them.. guessing the COTM will be very helpful. Thanks.

You should always be going broke on hand #2. How you go broke matters though because if you play this hand 100 times, he tries to outplay you way more often than he hits a set.

If he's aggressive preflop, then he can't have a big ace here. Therefore, the only hands that can call your check-raise all in are two pair and sets. If he bluffs a lot when checked to I like letting him hang himself, if he's loose and passive then I like betting. I also don't like your reasoning for your raise size preflop, we WANT dominated hands to call us and lose money. If we get multiple callers then the pot will be big and our hand will be easy to play and nobody is going to fold if they hit their ace/king/draw so it should still be quite profitable even if we get multiple callers.

Yes probably check/call line is better vs aggro player.

Haha_TP: I agree with your reasoning on not wanting to thin the field too much - if hero has KK+ With AK you miss 70% of flops so it is quite nice to get it heads-up on those occasions so we can cbet and take the pot some of the time. Yes it would be nice to hit top pair in a 4-way pot vs players with dominated top pair hands, but I think you can do that anyway:

Frequently it is passive preflop players with inelastic calling ranges who limp/call preflop with Ace-rag or KQ-K7 then call down postflop with top pair-weak-kicker. They don't care how big the preflop raise is up to a point, just that they have a hand they want to see a flop with. If such players are at your table behind you or limped in front I think you want to establish the maximum $$$ they will call preflop and raise that amount. Basically you can get the best of both worlds: Raise big and get a heads-up pot vs a wide, frequently dominated range.

The V in this hand is displaying this inelastic, price insensitive calling behaviour but with pocket pairs. We don't know if he does same with AX, SC etc but we should certainly keep raising him big and find out.

The danger of raising smaller to keep players in is that you give correct odds to good players who won't pay you off postflop but will either put pressure on when you look weak or stack you when they out flop you.