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TPTK against turn C/R from LAGGY villian TPTK against turn C/R from LAGGY villian

02-22-2015 , 01:12 PM
Playing juiceball 2-5 home game, plays pretty deep, half the players are somewhat nitty/reggy/decent, other half laggy but not particularly good at poker. Plays pretty deep as well. 10 handed.

Anyway, I am in CO with about 1500. Villain is BB with 2500+, he is mediocre but certainly laggy. A few limpers (lol) then I make it 20 with AThh, folds to villain who flats, one limper calls other mucks. Villains Range here is prolly 22-TT, 43s+, 46s+, 58s+, any two paint under AK, Axs, Kxs.

Pot is 60ish after rake.

Flop comes Ts 7d 5d. Checks to me, I bet 50, Villain calls, limper folds, and we are heads up.
Turn the beautiful 4d. Checks to me, I bet 100, Villain quick makes it 325, Hero???

Thoughts: There were definitely hands in his range I could get value from on both the turn and river here, for example, he'd call both turn and river bets with T9, JT, QT, KT, and probably even 88 and 99. He's not one to fold pairs. However, once he makes this kind of C/R, based on history I have little doubt he'll make it like 600 on the river or something and then I'd really have no clue what to do. Obviously, even if he has some stupid draw he could also have a decent amount of equity. Anyway, whaddaya guys think? Is this a simple Baluga theorem fold or is there more to it? Should I maybe have "pot controlled" (hate that term cuz I want fat value) on the turn?
TPTK against turn C/R from LAGGY villian Quote
02-22-2015 , 01:19 PM
check turn, as played fold
TPTK against turn C/R from LAGGY villian Quote
02-22-2015 , 01:36 PM
So am I just checking back every hand in my range except TT here? If so, why?
TPTK against turn C/R from LAGGY villian Quote
02-22-2015 , 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bph7
So am I just checking back every hand in my range except TT here? If so, why?
no, and i dont really know how you took that from my post. you have a hand that fares poorly vs his continuing range and has no redraws/equity when behind, while the hands you are ahead of will often have significant equity against you (and some of which will x/r and force you to fold this equity), and many of the Tx hands you are ahead of will check the river and allow you to win at showdown

also, TT is definitely not the top of your range as you should have plenty of flushes, so idk what the significance of TT here is
TPTK against turn C/R from LAGGY villian Quote
02-22-2015 , 01:53 PM
Not sure why you're laughing about 2 v's limping? The lol thing seems to be your raise size playing deep vs 2 limpers. The turn is clearly not a b/c so if you're betting its b/f, so fold.
TPTK against turn C/R from LAGGY villian Quote
02-22-2015 , 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvds
no, and i dont really know how you took that from my post. you have a hand that fares poorly vs his continuing range and has no redraws/equity when behind, while the hands you are ahead of will often have significant equity against you (and some of which will x/r and force you to fold this equity), and many of the Tx hands you are ahead of will check the river and allow you to win at showdown

also, TT is definitely not the top of your range as you should have plenty of flushes, so idk what the significance of TT here is
You are right about the flushes in my range, this is what I missed, I could have AT+dd, KJ+dd, QJ+dd, JTdd-89dd. I guess that makes checking the hand I had more logical. But it just seems like most times, I bet this hand, get called, checked to on the river, I bet 250 villain calls and says he didn't think I had it. Don't want to give up all this potential value too easily, but here it cost me the hand I guess.
TPTK against turn C/R from LAGGY villian Quote
02-22-2015 , 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wck117
Not sure why you're laughing about 2 v's limping? The lol thing seems to be your raise size playing deep vs 2 limpers. The turn is clearly not a b/c so if you're betting its b/f, so fold.
Lol was about how lots of people open limp then fold to the 20 raise even tho literally 90% of hands in this game get raised pre and will do this all night. What raise size would have been better? 20 is super standard in this game, literally any other number would get a comment, so that's why I did it pretty much, but I know that's not a good reason. Raise more I presume?
TPTK against turn C/R from LAGGY villian Quote
02-22-2015 , 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bph7
You are right about the flushes in my range, this is what I missed, I could have AT+dd, KJ+dd, QJ+dd, JTdd-89dd. I guess that makes checking the hand I had more logical. But it just seems like most times, I bet this hand, get called, checked to on the river, I bet 250 villain calls and says he didn't think I had it. Don't want to give up all this potential value too easily, but here it cost me the hand I guess.
Well played if you get value like this then but you have to fold when he raises.
TPTK against turn C/R from LAGGY villian Quote
02-22-2015 , 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bph7
Flop comes Ts 7d 5d. Checks to me, I bet 50, Villain calls, limper folds, and we are heads up.
Turn the beautiful 4d. Checks to me, I bet 100, Villain quick makes it 325, Hero???
I think you played this hand very well. You need to bet the turn to charge potential one diamond hands. Villain obviously hit flush and 86 straight draws, but would fold other straight draws like 98/64 and almost all pairs. It's worth $100 to try to win the pot. Clear fold after villain check-raises.

If villain calls the turn and checks the river, I would almost never try a thin river value bet.
TPTK against turn C/R from LAGGY villian Quote
02-22-2015 , 07:41 PM
$20 is a normal raise size in many 1/2 games with no limpers. It just seems really small in 2/5 with limpers. However, if that's the norm and they will fold, fine.

I probably check the turn, too. As stated, we have one pair and no redraws, and I don't think we can handle a raise. The only reason to bet the turn against a player like this is to gii with top/top. I'm not willing to do that. If I bet the turn, it b/f.
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02-22-2015 , 07:54 PM
Bet/fold if he's not tricky enough to rep diamonds when they come in.
Check back if he is and bluff catch most rivers.

As played, fold.
Also, laggy doesn't really tell us how he plays. Does he bluff a lot? Does he bet big a lot? Does he chase a lot? Does he ever make moves at the pot when the board gets scary? Does he play his strong draws fast or slow? How does he generally play his sets?
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02-22-2015 , 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch
Bet/fold if he's not tricky enough to rep diamonds when they come in.
Check back if he is and bluff catch most rivers.

As played, fold.
Also, laggy doesn't really tell us how he plays. Does he bluff a lot? Does he bet big a lot? Does he chase a lot? Does he ever make moves at the pot when the board gets scary? Does he play his strong draws fast or slow? How does he generally play his sets?
Bluffs a lot, bets huge a lot, chases a lot, plays everything fast. Borderline maniac but not completely insane. That's why I was even thinking about calling. Against most players I agree it's an easy fold. Fwiw, I did fold, he throw his Ad6s In my face, I told him NH sir.

I still dunno when/how to draw the line for when to bet this turn for value tho. As I said, hes definitely calling two bets on turn/river with worse a lot of the time, so if I'm not gonna bet this hand twice on turn and river, I feel like I'm giving up lots of value cuz then I'm basically only betting sets and flushes. In retrospect it's easy to say that I should've just checked the turn and value bet a safe river, but that gives him a free shot at his draws so there's a big downside there. Also, I don't get that huge value river bet out of him when I do that.
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02-22-2015 , 08:28 PM
He has 18 outs against most of your range here.
So it's not really a terrible play.

But if he is the type to float with A6o on this flop just to hope to get some nice turn cards to bluff you with, then we can't be folding to him pretty much ever.
TP/TK turns into the nuts, esp if he will play his strong hands (two pair/sets) otf strong. Then he mostly has draws and flushes in his range, and the draws are likely a large part of his range, as many of the stronger flush draws would get aggressive on the flop.

Without knowing that however, the turn fold is fine.
But once we know that, we need to make a fast adjustment and start stationing against this type of player with good holdings.
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02-23-2015 , 12:01 AM
I bet more preflop with a couple of limpers.

Check turn and fold to their big bet.

I don't think you played it bad overall
TPTK against turn C/R from LAGGY villian Quote
02-23-2015 , 01:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch
But if he is the type to float with A6o on this flop just to hope to get some nice turn cards to bluff you with, then we can't be folding to him pretty much ever.
I think he has the ideal floating hand here. If you're going to float with air on the flop, three to a straight plus three to a flush.
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