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Old 02-07-2014, 12:11 PM   #1
somewhat_nitty
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Question TPGK faces all-in raise on flop

Hello there,

I've been lurking for some time, this is my first post.

0,10/0,20 game, no rake, 7-handed.

Most players are loose passive, esp. postflop; lot's of limping preflop but usually someone raises eventually. Game is running for two hours, Stacks are about ~100BB, with few exceptions.

V1 (SB), male, around 40 y., LAG style but could still be more aggressive. Thinking player, probably the best player at the table, running good, stack is about 300BB/ 60 .

Hero (BB), male, around 40 y., recreational player, tries to employ a TAG style. Not overly aggressive tonight, though. Bought in for 20,00 an hour ago. Now down to 13,50 . Involved in 4 or 5 small pots, had to fold on the flop sometimes but also won two pots w/o showdown. In good mood so far, very calm.

V2 (CO), male, around 30 y., mother of all calling stations. Stack around 30,00 . Has at least reloaded once. Talks a lot.

I have played with both of them in the past so reads are solid.

On to the hand:

UTG folds, 4 limpers including V2, V1 completes small blind

Hero in the BB wakes up with QJ; I would have thrown the hand away without much thought if anyone had shown a vested interest in the pot. I raise to 2 , folds, V2 calls, Button folds, V1 calls.

Pot is 6,60

Flop comes
5 9 J

giving me top pair and a runner runner straight draw

V1 checks, Hero bets 4 , V2 calls, V1 thinks for 5 secs, asks how much I have behind (7,50 ), then gets all in.

Hero?

Please feel free to comment on my preflop play and bet-sizing on the flop, too.

At the table I figure there is not much left in V1s range. He would have bet out preflop with better KJ, AJ and at least with 99+. I wouldn't even give him all 3 combinations of 55 as played. So sets are unlikely right now. Maybe two pair. Will post more thoughts and results later.

Best,
somewhat_nitty
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Old 02-07-2014, 12:43 PM   #2
trucdouf
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I like how Europeans insist on including the respective $€ with every amount.

Anyways pretty easy fold. What's limp/calling PF and shoving? AJ for sure, small PPs for sure. And if truly a competent lag we include J9 and KJ as well.

We also have another V behind us to act. Doesn't look good for our TPGK.

Preflop I would much prefer to take the option and check. QJ doesn't play well OOP as PFR. If raised as we did, we should really be treading lightly when we don't flop gin.
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Old 02-07-2014, 01:09 PM   #3
SunChips
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Re: TPGK faces all-in raise on flop

You have under 70BB, you opened to 10BB in the SB and then bet 20BB on the flop.

I'd recommend doing some reading on SPRs and position.

You are right, it doesn't look good for our TPGK. But it sucks to fold when SPR is less than 1. This is the kind of situation where you use pokerstove (or something similar) to calculate equity vs. what you think their ranges are and decide to make the call or fold based on your odds. Remember the answer for next time you get in the situation.
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Old 02-07-2014, 01:28 PM   #4
answer20
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Re: TPGK faces all-in raise on flop

Your PF raise is fine ... 80 into 120 ... but we dont know if this was 'standard' for you and/or the table from the blind position. This could look like a steal if your image is set up that way.

You cant bet out on the Flop and then fold here IMO. I don't like the 3rd player in the hand since he will be priced into pretty much any draw. I 'do' like that fact that V2 shoved and to me that screams draw/weaker hand ... but he might think that if he shoves with AJ he might price out V1 by forcing him into a HU side pot.

You could be facing so much here flush/strt draws or both ... or just a better kicker ... or a worse kicker (TJ) ... or just 2 overs with spades (AK/AQ).

I dont like to call here but I think you need to call here. GL
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Old 02-07-2014, 01:47 PM   #5
Dubey
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Re: TPGK faces all-in raise on flop

There's a pile of draws out there and you are getting almost 3-1 against a competent player. Call.
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Old 02-07-2014, 02:40 PM   #6
somewhat_nitty
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Re: TPGK faces all-in raise on flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by trucdouf View Post
I like how Europeans insist on including the respective $€ with every amount.

Anyways pretty easy fold. What's limp/calling PF and shoving? AJ for sure, small PPs for sure. And if truly a competent lag we include J9 and KJ as well.

We also have another V behind us to act. Doesn't look good for our TPGK.

Preflop I would much prefer to take the option and check. QJ doesn't play well OOP as PFR. If raised as we did, we should really be treading lightly when we don't flop gin.
Yeah we like units... actually it is beaten into the kids in school to always give the unit, it's not limited to money.

Thank you for your thoughts, as mentioned at the table I excluded AJ, KJ entirely, I would still exclude some combos of AJ and KJ. I doubt he would always play those hands against a bunch of passive limpers OOP. With his winning image he would often bet it out even on the SB.

Could shove with air, especially after the question how much I have behind. His risk is about 20% of his remaining stack if he ignores V1. Agree with small pairs though, as well as J9, J10, Q10 and maybe even Q9 if suited. He might limp/call with any lower suited connectors or 1-gappers, I have seen him betting out aggressively with draws in the past. So a flush draw is still in his range after shoving. I am beaten by 3 combos of 55 and 6 combos of J9 plus maybe some AJ/KJ hands. Rest is draws or air, right?

Of course there is an other player behind... albeit the worst station of the whole company.
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Old 02-07-2014, 02:48 PM   #7
somewhat_nitty
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Re: TPGK faces all-in raise on flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunChips View Post
You have under 70BB, you opened to 10BB in the SB and then bet 20BB on the flop.

I'd recommend doing some reading on SPRs and position.

You are right, it doesn't look good for our TPGK. ...
I am aware of SPRs and position, I would have thrown the hand away if anyone had shown any sign of aggression. I know it's still borderline. Of course the stack is to short for a meaningful turn bet if I bet 4,00 on the flop. However I have a problem here: If I don't like a check on the flop, what alternative lines to a solid bet do I have OTF? Get it in initially?
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Old 02-07-2014, 02:56 PM   #8
somewhat_nitty
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Re: TPGK faces all-in raise on flop

Thank you to everyone so far. Based on your recommendations, it's still close. I will wait for a few more ideas and post results later.

answer20, the preflop raise was on the upper end of what's standard. Since lots of people like to straddle there and multiple straddles are allowed, 2.00 is not that much. 1.00 always gets a bunch of callers. Most of the time I stick to the "5 BB plus one BB for every limper" rule. BTW very few people there are thinking about my range, even if I folded every hand for the last 3 orbits.
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:22 PM   #9
Troyble
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Re: TPGK faces all-in raise on flop

Quote:
Originally Posted by somewhat_nitty View Post
Thank you to everyone so far. Based on your recommendations, it's still close.
It is not close.

It's 7.50 to win 26.1... You only need about 23% equity. If he can't have JJ, 99, KJ, AK, or overpairs, and can have flush draws, this is a clear call.

By the way, are you sure the best player at your table is limp/calling J9o pre? This is somewhat important. There are a grand total of 5 combos of 55 and J9 sooted. If you add in the unsuited J9 and it goes from 5 up to 9.

There are 8 combos of As2s - AsTs. If he can also have non-nut flush draws or one of the 3 possible OESDs (67, T8, and QT) once in a while, it's a fist pump snap call.
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Old 02-07-2014, 03:35 PM   #10
AncyentMarinere
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Re: TPGK faces all-in raise on flop

You made a pretty strong preflop raise (almost 15% of your stack) with a better than average, but not really easily playable hand from BB. And you got a couple of loose callers.

The pot on the flop is half your stack, and you've hit top pair decent kicker.
You make a solid bet on the flop and get re-raised by the most aggressive player at the table. How much credit do you give to him with that raise. I personally not giving him a ton of credit.

To me this is an easy call if this player can make this play with a lot of 9x,Jx,flush draw,mid-pocket pair and a few bluffs... you seem to have a some idea of his range here.

With these pot odds, I'm calling against all but the most passive nits.
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Old 02-07-2014, 05:25 PM   #11
beauvanlaanen
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These stakes have me a bit confused when it comes to finding BB and raise sizes. I think you it have 70bb to start the hand (?) with a few limpers to you in the BB I just check this hand more often than not because even a raise to 10x you will likely get more than 1 caller and then you a playing oop with a mediocre hand. As played i fold.
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Old 02-07-2014, 06:41 PM   #12
somewhat_nitty
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Re: TPGK faces all-in raise on flop

So here is how the hand went on:

Flop 5 9 J

I finally decide to call. (Troyble, no I wouldn't give him many of the J9o combos. That was more like a worst case scenario.)

V2-station calls.

V1 confidently tables J4
Hero tables JQ
V2 tables two small

Turn and river are bricks. I triple up.

Rest of V2's stack goes to V1, he still wins a little.

Analysis:

Both V1 and I didn't think that much about V2's hand.
Wow, V1's range was even wider than expected.
V1 thinks I cbet a lot when I miss the flop.

My QJs were way ahead preflop.
However, I will mix in some checks here.
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