1/2 Casino game

Pretty much everyone limps and hero checks BB with QdJd. No specific reads on players. Stacks are $200+ effective.

Flop Q63 rainbow, one diamond

Hero leads for $15 (close to pot)
4 callers

Turn = 10d
Hero bets $60

2 callers

River Jh
Hero bets $60

V shoves for $220 more.
Other player folds.

OK....

So here is my thought process at the time, although I think it was wrong looking back. Let me know. I think the biggest problem with this hand was betting the flop. I am not sure if leading into this many people makes sense with top pair, weakish kicker even on this dry board. I think I can get called by worse, and I think many times, I am not not getting the whole table calling. But as it turned out the pot became super bloated leaving me in a difficult spot on the turn. I told myself if I did not improve somehow on the turn I would just check, but when the 10d hit I felt like I could justify continuing. On the river, I bet small because I thought maybe AQ or KQ calls me or even Q10, but if I shove I fold out those hands. I was pretty surprised when V shoved. Suddenly, my hands looks pretty worthless, and yet how can I fold? If this guy has 66 or 33, I think I would have heard from him sooner. And how often can he have AK, which is the only legit hand he could have. I doubt he has QJ because he would have folded that on the turn. So while it "feels" like AK and this is never a bluff - it is SO hard for him to have AK. In fact, he would have to have exactly AdKd, because he is never calling 60 on the turn with just AK.

Thoughts?

I think OOP multiway I would check/call this flop a large percentage of the time. That said, there is a percentage of the time I'm leading. I choose my leads by how sticky my opponents are -- if they're continuing with tons of underpairs, let's bet/bet/decide.
Yeah, unless I'm a total fish this is a x/call spot so we don't get blown off of the hand with a raise. We want to realize our equity at this point.
This spot is highly villain dependent. Against someone who will turn their obviously beaten hands into bluffs, we can x/call. Against someone who will check behind pretty regularly, we can b/fold.
Yeah, I mean... as sick as it sounds: what bluff does he have here? He'd have to be a maniac. We're in a must-fold situation with ~10-20% equity on this river. Our plan should have been to b/fold, so I would've bet larger for value -- somewhere around $100. That sizing should net you some decent profit to offset situations like this.

You really shouldn't get married to a top two hand when your opponent has no air in his range. I think lots of villains will play a flopped set this way on such a dry board. It's a foolish thing for villain to assume you're on a backdoor flush draw and blow you out of the pot on the turn; easier to let you hang yourself with your perceived one-pair hand.

I like playing in games where players like to limp. However, before limping along with them I insist on having a good idea of what their limping comfort range is. I also prefer to play starting cards outside of what I perceive as most of their comfort range, so Villain and I are not playing in the same range.

Taken from the flop, I think you are correct. You have no reason to bet the flop. As Villains call your bet, each Villain is receiving help in the form of better pot odds from the previous Villain.

Problems compounding all the way to the river, now you are being leaned on with gusto. Villain shoves with anything from air, to the nuts. Flipping a chip is the best idea you can get about where you are at from what you wrote.

If I found myself here, which is doubtful at best, I'm folding and saving my remaining chips for a more defined opportunity.

The best answer I have is how much do you value the chips you have left? I think you are already at this point though?

B/f all 3 streets. River bets are what they are, imagine the planning for this guy to be bluffing. He floated 4 guys otf to get the 1 guy who might fold 2pair to commit the max. and then bluff shove? I don't know how he has you but he does. I called off a lot of these before realizing it didn't matter if I could pinpoint his cards or not: frontdoor fd missed but hit backdoor straight, vice versa, frontdoor flush missed but he hit running trips, etc. Don't worry about the exact cards, his line is strength.

he probably has a set a of 3's or AK. these idiots never fold AK


If you had a read on him - call it off - if not just fold

pre is a good spot to raise. There is a lot of dead money in the pot and we have a good hand.

IF there were 8 limpers, raise to 35 and expect to either take it down or get one caller.

As played, I wouldn't be happy with top pair ok kicker with 9 players so I would not lead out.

I would fold the river, there are three straight cards and we have no info on the villain.

The worst hand he has with this line is QJ. Fold.

wtf are stacks, this is not clear at all.

tldr skip to stove at bottom

If you check QJdd in the BB, what are you raising? I might raise this hand. Not that you need to, but you could probably make more money by raising a hand like QJdd.
You dominate a ton of v's limps. Worse queens, worse diamonds, and worse jacks at least. You want J7o to call. If your raise gets like 5 callers, maybe raise more. Or maybe you've adjusted and only raise very strong hands for large raises, I don't know. If villains will put in 10+bb w trash pre, this is a good game.

I like the flop bet. Betting the flop gets value from all pairs, straight draws, gutters. He didn't limp 47s to see a 6 3 on the flop and fold. He'll even call the turn some of the time too.

I like the turn bet for the same reason as above, plus we've picked up a good flush draw. BD flushes get paid. The villains' ranges are very wide and, although there is a nonzero chance that you're beat, in many games I think you can get called by worse very often.

On the river, stacks are not clear. You wrote around $200eff to start, but it seems like stacks are closer to $350 (220+ 60 + 60 + 15). The river has about $520 and you need to call $220 I guess. Do you win like 30% of the time? Range this V and decide. I guess I would fold.

HOWEVER, I stoved this and got the following result:

Against {TT-JJ, 66, 33, AQs+,QTs, JTs, QTo, JTo} you are exactly 50%. Then this is a call.
That's against sets, discounted AQ and AK, no QQ, and big two pairs. Maybe you need to call and you definitely need reads to range V.

Please include positions of relevant villians in your posts. Also the suits of each card.

Your turn sizing might be a little heavy.

I don´t like the river bet sizing at all. This ''same bet'' **** here amounts to betting less than 1/4 of the pot. A worse two pair can easily raise you here for value. Or some donkey might spazz. I might go for it here with whiffed draws like Ad6d,Ad3d,7d5d,5d4d.

Bad river sizing makes me wanting to call the raise since V can now have 2 pair and is raising for value.

Yeah, so this is why it's *so* important to develop a read on every player at the table.

Who's raising? What betting lines have they taken? What do you think this bet represents?

The problem here is that the line makes no sense in a vacuum. So we need a sense of the player to work it out. Could they...
-be limping AK, then calling two streets because "overcards." Then jamming river because "yay nuts!"
-be slow-playing bottom or middle set, then jamming river?
-be jamming a busted straight draw?
-be overvaluing j10/q10/63?

We should have a sense of all this for each opponent. 1/2 opponents aren't particularly complicated. That's where much of our expected profit comes from--their predictability.

In a vacuum, we have two conflicting principles at work here. (1) big bets = big hands. (2) funky lines that make no sense tend to be bluffs.

I'd lean call, because I think it's at least as likely that this random villain overvalued a weaker two pair as it is that he called to the end to raise with a set (that's a weird and dangerous type of sneaky) or called till the end with ak (that's a weird kind of spewy).

Also, re: flop betting

Again, this is where table dynamics should heavily influence our decision. Couple questions to evaluate:

1.Are opponents likely to bet flop with worse? Which opponents, how much worse, and what lines will they take on the turn/river if so? I'm happy to check-call all the way against a habitual bluffer.
2.Are there opponents in the hand who are positionally aware enough to float you and steal on the turn/river?
3.Are there calling stations in the hand who will pay you off with Q9-Q2?
4. Would your opponents limp with AQ/KQ/66/33, or would they raise with these hands?
4.Is there anyone in the hand who is capable of bluff-raising the river?

In most of the 1-2 limpfests I play in, the answers tend to be 1. maybe, 2. no, 3. yes, 4. it varies, and 5. no. In that situation, this is a bet/fold, bet/fold, bet/fold line. In a situation where I'm facing tricky opponents who like to make moves on later streets, this is either a check/call flop, or bet flop, check/eval (but lean call) turn.