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Tough spot with top pair Tough spot with top pair

12-12-2016 , 10:22 PM
2/5 game, Hero: 300$, Villain: 450$
I straddle on the button for 10$ bb calls, villain ( who is a very tight player) in the cut off also calls, I got KQ off, and decided to raise it to 35$ total, Bb folds, CO says ""one shot" and calls and we go to the flop heads up.
Flop comes K 7 2 rainbow, CO checks and i bet 40$, he called pretty quickly, turn comes 9 which bring a flush draw on board, he leads out for 65$, and i called, River brings an offsuit 10, he bets 120$ Now i got a decition...

I tanked for like 2 minutes and decided to fold because, we had some history and i consider him a really tight player who doesnt get out of line almost. Never. Plus by he flatting the initial straddle and calling a raise, he could easily have 77 or 22 even Ak off, i think i this spot he doesnt have any bluff at all cause the flop was so dry and what could he be bluffing here? I dont think if he had KJ he would have lead the turn and bet the river again. I got kinda confused in this hand but i think i made the right decition.
Hope to see your commenrs below and let me now your opinion of the hand

Last edited by Roger Mainfield; 12-13-2016 at 10:46 PM. Reason: Moved from MSNL
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-13-2016 , 03:12 AM
Why the gell do you straddle?
Fold is fine I guess.
Would isoraise preflop bigger though and cbet flop smaller, as Board is so dry and you should have more Kx than he does.


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Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-13-2016 , 08:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuxPoker17
Why the gell do you straddle?
Fold is fine I guess.
Would isoraise preflop bigger though and cbet flop smaller, as Board is so dry and you should have more Kx than he does.


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Game was slow and I was stuck a bit, average raise is about 15-20, i think 35 is okay to isolate the limpers.
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-14-2016 , 09:11 AM
Pretty top of my range for 30bb poker. Check flop

Mistake was betting flop.

I check this flop at this stack depth with all of my value range vs unknown V's. No point in betting. You're way ahead or way behind. You don't get enough value by betting to do so. You will extract a lot more value on turn and rivers long run by checking. It also helps to not get put in positions like we are in now, which is not a real reason for checking flop, it's just an added bonus we get from checking flop.

We check flop because of the first reason with our value hands at this depth. Vs some of the players who are a bit more oberserving, we will need to mix our value hands with some bluffs, same goes for our check range.

You can check back some TP/overpairs and mix in checks with some showdown value hands some Q high Jack high, etc and some of our weakest range. To balance things out. Keeps our V a little more honest and allows him to make more mistakes when they are thinking. Especially given we have position.


On the turn, I'm not sure if folding/calling is best. It's pretty damn close, the line is so awkward. I like to think 2p+. If you call turn, you have to call river in this spot.

Last edited by Dochrohan; 12-14-2016 at 09:34 AM.
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-14-2016 , 10:22 AM
I've seen alot of these turn donks on desert dry boards recently and I have no idea what they mean. I actually made a pretty big fold in a big pot a few sessions ago in a similar hand where I 3b pre, villain check called flop, donked blank turn, pot blank river.

I regret not calling bc I like to become familiar with lines, though this line does seem strong.

I do know a check/call, check/call, lead line is usually strong, barring obvious missed draws vs. obv bad players.
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-14-2016 , 01:02 PM
I like pre-flop, sizing could be a bit bigger.

On the flop a check is best against a really tight player. No possible draws so we're not giving up a whole lot of equity and exercising pot control.

His lead out on the turn doesn't seem like just a flush draw, given that he's a very tight player. It seems like he's trying to protect a pair of Kings. I think you were spot on putting him on AKo, He just doesn't call you pre-flop enough with KJ. 77 is also possible but less likely. Just because of the opponent I would definitely fold here on the turn, because if you can't really call turn and then fold the river too much.
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-14-2016 , 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJRay13
I like pre-flop, sizing could be a bit bigger.

On the flop a check is best against a really tight player. No possible draws so we're not giving up a whole lot of equity and exercising pot control.

His lead out on the turn doesn't seem like just a flush draw, given that he's a very tight player. It seems like he's trying to protect a pair of Kings. I think you were spot on putting him on AKo, He just doesn't call you pre-flop enough with KJ. 77 is also possible but less likely. Just because of the opponent I would definitely fold here on the turn, because if you can't really call turn and then fold the river too much.
No, no, no. It's nothing to do with pot control. It's all about maximizing value on future streets. Sure you give up a chance he hits a set or 2p, etc.

The thing is, at 30bb poker, you need to give some wiggle, even with deeper stacked poker you should be doing similar things HU.

You can make cases vs better opponents at 30bb and deeper stacked poker, you need to mix ranges, where you're never static with checking all your value bet, etc.

The pot control is just a bonus.

The turn bet is ridiculous to say AKo, he limped pre-flop. This is rarely AK. This is Kx, Kxs or a PP and sometimes, a floated QJ/JT trying to semi-bluff because you rarely hit this board and neither has your V. Turn is kind of gross, because you either have to fold or call/call a lot of rivers.

I hate this spot, because I'm never put in it vs unknowns. I always check this flop at this stack depth. It's a huge mistake not to.

Turn is probably a call. River is probably a fold. I doubt he leads anything under 2p+ on this river.
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-14-2016 , 01:19 PM
Check the flop. A tight player will tell you on the turn how much he likes his hand. You're never getting called by worse here.

As played, easy fold on the turn. A 'very tight' player almost always has you beat with AK or a set. He's never betting KJ- or air.
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-14-2016 , 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nice_Guy_Eddie
Check the flop. A tight player will tell you on the turn how much he likes his hand. You're never getting called by worse here.

As played, easy fold on the turn. A 'very tight' player almost always has you beat with AK or a set. He's never betting KJ- or air.
I did not even read that extra segment where Hero thought V was a really tight player.

Then turn is a snap fold.

Vs an unknown, it's probably a call, but never loving what you got yourself into. It turns into a guessing game when you bet flop 30bb deep vs unknowns on dry boards, when they lead turns that bring draws out there.
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-14-2016 , 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dochrohan
The turn bet is ridiculous to say AKo, he limped pre-flop. This is rarely AK. This is Kx, Kxs or a PP and sometimes, a floated QJ/JT trying to semi-bluff because you rarely hit this board and neither has your V. Turn is kind of gross, because you either have to fold or call/call a lot of rivers.

I hate this spot, because I'm never put in it vs unknowns. I always check this flop at this stack depth. It's a huge mistake not to.

Turn is probably a call. River is probably a fold. I doubt he leads anything under 2p+ on this river.
OP has said multiple times that this is a very tight opponent, of course he could have AKo. Turn call, Wut? Re-read, and re-try
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-14-2016 , 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayJRay13
OP has said multiple times that this is a very tight opponent, of course he could have AKo. Turn call, Wut? Re-read, and re-try
I already said in a post above that I did not see V was considered super tight.

Regardless, AK still is not really in his hand range. That's a raise hand for most tights.

This is likely a set or some type of oddball Kxs that has 2p. Since it's a straddled pot and V is very tight. He does have AK in his range though.

Which just makes it too easy to get away on turn.
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-14-2016 , 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dochrohan
That's a raise hand for most tights.
Lots of people won't raise AKo as a matter of personal preference and generally do not like the hand. These people are usually very very tight players.
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-14-2016 , 04:02 PM
Many tight players I know limp with AK, especially if there is a straddle. So weird. Easy fold on turn vs. this guy.
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-16-2016 , 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javanewt
Many tight players I know limp with AK, especially if there is a straddle. So weird. Easy fold on turn vs. this guy.
Yeah, i thought alot about folding the turn bet but i thought it was too tight and probably he might have been betting a worst king,and since i had position on him i called to see if he slows down on the river so i had an easy check with showdown value, but when he bet the river he looked so confident which also made me lay down my hand
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-16-2016 , 06:57 PM
The thing is that without a read, players don't take the lead on a hand to check on a later street. You have to play as if there will be a bet on the river. In this case, that means you should be folding to a tight player.

On this dry a flop, I like checking. Villains are more likely to call or bet out on the turn and river with a weaker hand. If you bet the flop, they'll give up on the turn.
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-16-2016 , 08:50 PM
Without more history and better read, $40 bet on the flop looks like a bluff.

It could potentially induce V to bluff turn.

On the flip side, most players would slow play set on rainbow flop and then bet harder when scared card hits. Without more information, it is hard to say whether $60 bet is considered his way of protecting his hand.
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-17-2016 , 04:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker
Without more history and better read, $40 bet on the flop looks like a bluff.

It could potentially induce V to bluff turn.

On the flip side, most players would slow play set on rainbow flop and then bet harder when scared card hits. Without more information, it is hard to say whether $60 bet is considered his way of protecting his hand.
Yeah, but how would you play 22,77 or even 99 on this board? Probably the same as he played check call the flop, donk bet turn and value bet rivers. All i can think off is he having a set or Ak, maybe some Kjs or k10s which made 2 pair on the river but i think he would check those hands on the turn instead of leading.
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-17-2016 , 04:41 AM
Read dependent spot. Need something more specific than "very tight."
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-17-2016 , 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atroya2106
let me now your opinion of the hand
You chose to build a somewhat sizable pot in circumstances I would not. Big pots for big hands, mostly.

Lead turn, lead river, with that sizing, is unusual. It seems he is confident that either he has the best hand or you will believe he does.

Probably 22.

Last edited by BadlyBeaten; 12-17-2016 at 09:10 AM.
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-17-2016 , 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atroya2106
Yeah, but how would you play 22,77 or even 99 on this board? Probably the same as he played check call the flop, donk bet turn and value bet rivers. All i can think off is he having a set or Ak, maybe some Kjs or k10s which made 2 pair on the river but i think he would check those hands on the turn instead of leading.
How would he play bluffs and hands weaker than KQ?
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-17-2016 , 10:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker
How would he play bluffs and hands weaker than KQ?
He is never bluffing in this spot, very tight player doesnt get out of line with bluffs.
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-17-2016 , 10:12 PM
So if he's never bluffing, and you only beat 4 combos of KJ, what's there to discuss?
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-17-2016 , 11:31 PM
nh, consider x'ing this flop
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-18-2016 , 06:03 AM
Am I losing my mind? Call. He's just clicking buttons with this line. We block AK, plus he didnt raise pf so it should be discounted. He's repping so narrow, and everyone thinks this is a fold? I bet he shows up with something nonsensical that he played passively until the turn but is now turning into a bluff without really realizing it. Y'all wylin out doe
Tough spot with top pair Quote
12-18-2016 , 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fromzero2zero
Am I losing my mind? Call. He's just clicking buttons with this line.
Why is he just clicking buttons?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fromzero2zero
We block AK, plus he didnt raise pf so it should be discounted.
Most would agree that AK is not a major part of his value range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fromzero2zero
He's repping so narrow, and everyone thinks this is a fold?
Ok, say we accept that he's repping a very narrow range of set and AK, but what range of hands can we actually beat that would call pre and flop, then decides to fire on turn and barrel river?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fromzero2zero
I bet he shows up with something nonsensical that he played passively until the turn but is now turning into a bluff without really realizing it. Y'all wylin out doe
Other than mere possibility of "anything can happen," why and with what hands would he actually turn his hand into bluff?
Tough spot with top pair Quote

      
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